Let's Walk (with Halli)
Go for a walk with Halli as he chats with creative people about their life and work.
Let's Walk (with Halli)
Peggy Kelley : Walking with Death's Guide
What happens when we're faced with our deepest vulnerabilities? Who guides us through those darkest moments when words fail and understanding seems impossible?
Meet Peggy Kelly, a hospital chaplain at Cedars-Sinai in Los Angeles, whose extraordinary work places her at the intersection of life's most profound transitions. Far from the religious stereotype many might expect, Peggy reveals the nuanced art of spiritual care – a practice that serves people of all faiths and none, focusing not on conversion but connection.
With disarming honesty, Peggy shares her unlikely journey from aspiring actress to "soul doctor," sparked by witnessing children's existential questions after 9/11. She details the rigorous path to becoming a chaplain – a seven-year journey requiring clinical training, theological education, and thousands of hours of patient care. This isn't volunteer work; it's a calling that demands both professional expertise and profound humanity.
The conversation takes breathtaking turns as Peggy recounts experiences with dying children whose wisdom transcends their years, including a five-year-old boy who, after watching his mother die, simply observed, "I guess she's all done with school." Such moments reveal how even in our most broken times, unexpected beauty and clarity can emerge.
What makes this exchange particularly powerful is its embrace of contrasting perspectives. As the host shares his atheistic viewpoint shaped by losing his mother at eleven, Peggy listens without judgment, demonstrating the very approach that makes her work so effective – meeting people exactly where they are. Their respectful dialogue creates a rare space where faith and skepticism can coexist, united by shared human experience.
Whether you're grappling with mortality, supporting someone through illness, or simply curious about how we find meaning in suffering, this conversation offers rare insights into life's most challenging moments. Listen now to discover how spiritual care transcends religious boundaries to touch what makes us most human.
Okay, good to see you, Didi.
Speaker 2:Good to see you, halle.
Speaker 1:How are you?
Speaker 2:I'm off, which is a wild thing for me to grasp. It's sometimes, yeah, I feel like I've just been spinning plates in the air and now I just got knocked off my axis, so I kind of don't know what to do. But I'm trying to just not think about it because I've been just going on a really, really, really long work tirade for probably a full year right now. So I'm just enjoying my time off while I also struggle with it. Does that make?
Speaker 1:sense it does. Yes, I have a very hard time being off work. I've tried it multiple times because people tell me it's healthy, and then I kind of just spiral and end up starting doing something.
Speaker 2:You shouldn't be.
Speaker 1:Just anything.
Speaker 2:There goes Halle, what's he doing? Ah, he done this Same with me All of a sudden. I'm like my husband's. Like what are you doing? I'm like the treehouse. I'm building the treehouse. He's like we never wanted a treehouse, and then here we are. Yeah, but I try not to get too busy.
Speaker 1:Is the rooster up?
Speaker 2:Oh, he's definitely up. I don't know if you can hear Sometimes we call him Corn Flake because it's a take on the corn flakes but Cornelius is up. He's hooting and hollering. I'm hoping our listeners will hear him, because you can't hear that because you're in my AirPods. But he will chime in, for sure, he already has this morning, so yeah, yeah, it's always.
Speaker 1:I think it's good I heard because I listened to our previous recording and I heard him and it's a very cozy. Yeah, there he is.
Speaker 2:He just yeah, it is, it is the uh room room sounds are pretty good here out here in nature and east side, los angeles, uh, in highland park. It's beautiful, beautiful day today. Um, you are on a journey to learn more about yourself and more people as we go through this, this, and you told me who you were talking to today and I had no idea what to expect. So why don't you tell the people who you were talking to this time and why?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to go talk to a person. So I think most of the guests are what you would typically call creative people actors and artists and dancers and directors and all sorts of people. But I do think creativity is a very encompasses, a very broad spectrum, and when this opportunity arose to talk to this person her name is Peggy Kelly, okay, and she's a chaplain, which is sort of a spiritual guide. She works at Cedars-Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles and so I thought about it actually quite a bit before I decided, yes, I want to talk to her I was thinking how does this fit into what we're doing? And I think I'm really interested in what she does. I think it is a very creative space. I think you know from what I know about what she does and I'm going to learn more about it she spends time with people who are at, you know the most vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these are people that are. You know, either they are themselves very sick or their immediate family or friends are around them, and so I think in those moments she has access to these people and they come to her for some kind of guidance, and I think that's a very first of all. Personally, I'm not religious, but I think that's a very honorable profession to spend your time helping people when they need help the most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, making sense out of a chaos that most of us maybe don't understand why, why, why, why, why? And it's also unfair. And there she is, like a little hand in the dark.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I'm just really excited to get to talk to her. I feel I will learn something, and hopefully the listeners too, and both of us will learn something from her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I think again, even though I'm not religious, I think there is a lot to people like that and people who will just spend their time helping others.
Speaker 2:I mean, I share your sentiment of not being a religious person. I sometimes joke that I'm a godless human being person. I sometimes joke that I'm a godless human being, but it wasn't really a thing that I had to express myself about until I moved to the States, because you know here, as we know, in the United.
Speaker 2:States. Religious is quite the bone of contention over here and a weapon and it's been weaponized and used to incentivize hate and this and that and ostracize communities. You know the gay community, this community, that community. So I was very interested when you talked about this because I as always has also been previously stated went through my dad passing away from cancer and I was offered to speak to a chaplain in the hospital in Iceland, which I well-helmetly said I am good, thank you, I don't want to talk to a religious person.
Speaker 2:I don't see any point of that. This is not for me. Thankfully, all of my friends were like well, you know, listen, this guy is pretty exceptional. Why don't you just go give him a shot? And you know, and I walked in and I said, hey, can we please have no Bibles, no crosses? Do you have like a thing?
Speaker 2:on your neck. He said no, none of that. And then we sat down and he and I consider this man one of my greatest saviors in my life, because I go back to a really really really brutally honest conversation about grief, my mother, this, that and the other, and I go routinely back in my head over like a 15, 20-minute conversation I had with this man that has sat with me more than most of the therapies that I've had, and he didn't mention God the entire time. He didn't say like well, you know, it's part of God's plan that your dad's dying, which you know.
Speaker 2:I would just walked out because I don't get that part. But I think this is why I'm very excited to listen to Peggy, because the breadth of people in whatever they believe in this person has to meet them at that time.
Speaker 2:And I agree creative she has to be fast on her feet to think how she can comfort that person who like me, but like I don't believe in God and I don't, or I'm Muslim or I'm this or that, and I don't really understand what you're doing here. She has to find the glue and get in there to try and make sense of it. So I'm really listening, looking forward to listening to this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think let's go On that note just go do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1:I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 2:Check you back. Bye.
Speaker 1:Bye. So what do you do?
Speaker 3:What do I do? So I'm a chaplain. Have you ever heard of that?
Speaker 1:It is a version of a priest?
Speaker 3:Well, it's no. Well, priests can be chaplains. Okay, like the Catholic, chaplains are all priests, but it's like spiritual care.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:So when you come to the hospital, we want to take care of every part of you. We want to have mind, body and spirit care. Yeah, so I come in and I ask how their spirits are doing, and then I tend to that. So it's almost like a soul doctor. I know that sounds a little goofy. It's for everything that's going on. It doesn't have to be someone who's religious.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It can be someone completely non-religious. It can be any gamut of the spectrum of religiosity or faith.
Speaker 1:Is there somewhere between a priest and a therapist?
Speaker 3:It kind of is. It kind of is, and it's kind of like spiritual psychology in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what do you study to become a chaplain?
Speaker 3:Well, it's a bigger journey than most people realize, because a lot of times I'll go in rooms and they're like oh, you're such a nice volunteer, thanks for being here, and I'm like I'm not volunteering, I'm getting some dental health insurance, I'm getting the whole thing. So what you do is you take this course of study called clinical pastoral education, cpe, and so what you do is you go in the hospital and you're actually doing the same thing, like, say, a medical intern goes in and just does the work and then they get supervised and they debrief and they being watched and all that kind of stuff, kind of the same thing. So you just go in and you start seeing patients, you just go into rooms and you kind of jump in baptism by fire in a way, at least when I was training they're a little more uh, delicate with students now, but when I went in they were just like go, you know first things of death, go, that kind of thing. And then you come out and you are part of the team and it's about also being like appropriately assertive, being part of the care team, bringing something to the team as far as like doctors wanting to know what's going on with a patient, because sometimes what we can bring is a total different insight into what's going on right. And so there's the training. We do four units of that and that's like 1600 hours in the hospital.
Speaker 3:And then you have to get a Master's of Divinity, which is an MDiv for short, and that's about a hours in the hospital. And then you have to get a master's of divinity which is an MDiv for short, and that's about a three, four year master's program. And it was so hard for me because I'm not a great student. So it's like philosophy, psychology, history, theology, all these different things. And so you study and you write these crazy papers and thesis and all that. So you get the MDiv, you do the CPE. Then you have to have some sort of endorsement or ordination to back you. So I got. I grew up Catholic. I'm still super enmeshed in the Catholic tradition. I'm an oblate, which is a you know the word oblation like obliged. So an oblate is something where I'm very connected to these sisters of St Ben's. They're like my spiritual moms. I'm not a fallen nun because I didn't want to do the big vows. It's too much for me.
Speaker 3:It's too scary. So I did the smaller ones and so I'm like connected to that community, I'm like a little sister to the sister. And then I got ordained in a congregational path because the Catholic church won't ordain women, right. So you do that. And then you have to get 2000 hours of actually working as a chaplain. Then what you do is you go for certification and you write like a little book about yourself which is really uncomfortable, about your competencies, with case studies and things, and then you go before a board where they kind of ask you questions to see if you're actually worthy of giving the stamp to right. So it's about a seven year deal and why would you do that?
Speaker 3:I love that question. Oh, ollie, that's awesome. Well, if I want to do this work, I have to do it that way, especially in like really high-end institutions.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:They want the infinite degree, or whatever it's called Like, the finite degree. Is that what it's called Like, the last thing you need for that profession?
Speaker 1:Rephrase the question how did?
Speaker 3:you know that you wanted to do that. If you would have told me in my 20s I was doing this, I'd say you're insane. Because I came to LA to be an actress. Okay, I came here with a one-woman show. I was writing characters and comedy. I wanted to do like Saturday Night Live, that kind of stuff, but I to write in television. And so I did this one-woman show in Minneapolis. That did really well and I came out here and I just fell on my face.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because LA is so hard.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:You know, you come thinking they're waiting for you and they're not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you come off the bus.
Speaker 3:Come off the bus.
Speaker 1:Well, I drove a big old crappy car from my dad.
Speaker 3:Mulholland Drive. Yeah, all the way from Minnesota, I didn't have a cell phone. I just got in this big old car and came here and it took me a couple tries Like I'd come out and I'd go back, and I'd come out and I'd go back.
Speaker 1:A lot of rejection.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a lot of rejection and, just coming from, I didn't have any friends in this business. I didn't know anybody. I was a nanny in Minneapolis and I had a few contacts from them, minneapolis and I had a few contacts from them, and that ended up being really amazing because it was a Jewish couple out here. She was a comedian at the comedy store and she took me under her wing and they became my Jewish parents and I was raised Irish Catholic. So here I was, immersed in a Jewish world which I've never, not in my little super whitey area I grew up in.
Speaker 3:You know it's all Lutherans. Being Irish Catholic was a little exotic, even in the Apples at that time in the 80s, but I didn't know anyone. And then I kept coming back and forth and I got a few little things little days on a soap and a couple of voiceovers and a commercial and a couple of things like that. And I was working on all that and that was way back 20 something years ago because I was teaching Sunday school at St Monica's, which is a Catholic church in Santa Monica, and I was like I got to keep my toes connected to God. I mean, I always feel connected to God, but I just needed to be of service somehow. So and I love, I've worked with kids all my life. I still do, I cover a lot of pediatrics and stuff.
Speaker 3:But then 9-11 happened and I was working with kids and Holly, these kids were totally changed by that event. You know, first of all, we're in. We're in this diverse town, so these kiddos have Muslim friends and Jewish friends and right Scientology friends and everything. They were really affected. They were like the parents came up to me and they were like please, they're not sleeping, they're standing over us watching us sleep. You know the parents are trying to shield them and stuff, but there's no way back then that you could have, because it's all that was. Everything was shut down, everything was closed, there were no flights going and the TV was 24 seven covered. So kids were super wrapped up and they were saying things like my neighbor's muslim, am I supposed to hate him now? What happened to?
Speaker 3:those people yeah, you know, or am I safe? Why do they hate us? Why do we hate these? You know, all these like really existential crisis, where's god? Stuff like that most of the time. I don't have all the answers for sure, but I just sat with them in the grass out front and we were feeding the birds, which used to be a ritual for us to say thank you God for, and we'd throw up the seeds and the birds would eat and we felt like we were getting the prayer taken by the bird to.
Speaker 3:God. And so we were out there and their eyes were just flattened and they were really affected and they were exhausted. And so I sat with them and we just talked and I was just present for them I was just a safe place to fall and I said I think I need to do something else or, in addition to the Hollywood stuff I need and I'm not saying that that isn't a great thing- to do because that feeds our soul too.
Speaker 3:But I, um, I said, okay, I got to do something. And then I started on the journey and I was a horrible student. I flunked out of college, I didn't get a bachelor's, and now I had to go back and get a master's.
Speaker 1:Here in LA.
Speaker 3:Back in Minnesota.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:I went to this wonderful seminary, st John's in Minnesota, and those nuns I was talking about, they were so badass, they went into the dean and they're like you have to let her in, she needs to do this work, even though I had no bachelor's, so it was like this probationary grandfathering thing. So I had to prove myself. So it was just like I was terrified. You know the expectations were high, but that's where I decided I had to.
Speaker 1:And what's the plan then to go on this seven-year journey, or did you just like let's start with one thing and see where it goes?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I didn't. I had no idea it was this journey and so what I did was super avoiding the master's part because I was so afraid of school. I did it the opposite way. I went and I got into UCLA to do my first unit of CPE and I covered the pediatric area there and transplants and a lot of stuff, and then I finished at children's, did the last three, so specialty in pediatrics. Then I was working and the gal at children's said, if you want to do this professionally, you have to finish your master's. And I was like, oh God. Then I reluctantly went back and it was pretty intimidating because I was later, I was in my late 30s, yeah, and I'm sitting in a room with a bunch of 20 something harvard kids that I just thought, oh man, I'm such a dumbass, I'm not gonna do this, I'm never gonna make it through this, but I did it. But it was really hard. Have you had those things where you look at it, you look back and you go how did I do?
Speaker 1:that, yeah, a lot, a lot of things, but usually it was it accumulates. I went to school and a bachelor's degree in philosophy and finance. And then I went to school and a bachelor's degree in philosophy and finance, wow. And then I went to a master's in economics. I mean, that was like a thing. Those were things that I would go into and think, okay, I know what I'm getting into. But a lot of the other things that I've done in my life have been one day at a time, and then it's and I'm somewhere else, not where I was going, because I wasn't going anywhere, I was just doing something.
Speaker 3:And it propelled you.
Speaker 1:And then it happens. And then you look back and you kind of build a mountain out of grains of sand and you have something by the end of it and yeah, it's not what you were going to do. But you look back and you're like I'm surprised often that I did that.
Speaker 3:Isn't that cool? Yeah, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that's one of the things when someone's going through something really incredibly hard. I like to find out these kind of stories because it reminds you who you are and what you can do, are and what you can do. And then because I think what happens to us and tell me if you feel like this happens. We get into places in our lives that are so hard, something huge happens, loss or something, and we get so um, the anxiety, the pain, the fear gets so big that we almost are out of our body, yeah, away from ourself, and we don't remember who we are and to say go back to you, know, give me a life of you, tell me what these things are, who you are. All of a sudden you go oh, that's right, I went through, I did come out of that, whoa, you know, because you can forget those things about yourself when you're so in dark space, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So you've had an incredible journey, really fascinating, as far as I know, I know.
Speaker 1:I'd love to know more, because that's I'm surprised by it. I don't know if anyone else is, but I, yeah I lost my mom when I was young. How old were you? 11.? Oh my goodness, and so that was, and at that time there was no care.
Speaker 3:No, like psychological support kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, there was. I remember when I went to see her there was a priest. I don't know if I call him a priest. Maybe he was a chaplain, who knows.
Speaker 3:Yeah, probably.
Speaker 1:Who was the? You know he talked to me for about 20 minutes. I think that was about it. In terms of any kind of support.
Speaker 3:Do you remember anything he said?
Speaker 1:No, I do remember him being comforting, oh good. But I also remember, because she my dad is an atheist and my mom was sort of a Christian, but not deeply religious. I mean, I think she believed in something bigger and better and I think for her Jesus was kind of like a proxy for that.
Speaker 3:So that was my sort of religious background.
Speaker 1:And when she died I kind of just decided well, there is no God. That's very clear at this point.
Speaker 3:Because of of that loss. Do you think that was the impact?
Speaker 1:that was it. Yeah, I was. I was sort of on the fence, but that was been that point. It's like okay, no that's fair yeah, because the pain must have been an unbelievable yeah 11 is such a good, such a kid yeah, and so yeah, that kind of obviously shocked me, and still does.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It lives in my core.
Speaker 3:Did you go to the hospital and see her, not the hospital it was, I'm not sure.
Speaker 1:so it's not the funeral, but there is a sort of pre-funeral. It's like when you oh, the viewing. Yes.
Speaker 3:Was she like you could see her.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh yeah, okay, yeah yeah, so I saw her and, yeah, it was wild yeah, how did your dad handle that with you? They were, they had been divorced. Okay, for you know, since I was one wow, and so I don't remember them together my dad was 32 at the time, I think 32 or 33. So young, I mean. He handled it the best way he could, but he had no idea how to handle it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because how do you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's just an impossible situation, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I just shut down. I couldn't really talk about it, so I avoided any kind of discussion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and now you can talk about it.
Speaker 1:Not really. It's still really hard yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that those kind of things that happen are so unfair and I go to those situations all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And there really isn't a lot to say to people. Yeah, those situations all the time and there really isn't a lot to say to people. It's more of just being there with them and letting them sort of process it and figure it out. But I think with kids it's super important. I work with kids a lot that have had their parents die young kids and I've seen so many different reactions and they're all really really amazing and profound. These times with these kids, they're so angry and people are telling them they shouldn't be angry, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, they're in a better place. Yeah, things are, you know. I don't know if you heard Amy that kind of stuff once in a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, of course, and I just think that was really annoying, like what are you talking about?
Speaker 3:yeah, this is his mom, what are you? And? I get so mad at that. That's bad spiritual care yeah it's bad. That's not where you're gonna go. It's not where you're gonna go. Some people jump to that immediately and I'm always like you know whoa, and even as a believer in the next life in heaven, that's not fair to jump there because the reality is no matter where that soul went to.
Speaker 3:the kid's still here and the loss is so intense. So I think, normalizing all that stuff for a kid and letting them realize that anger is valid, you can be so pissed off. I've seen kids hit walls, scream. I've seen kids throw up because the feelings are so deep they can't digest it right All of the different things. And I've seen adults try to wrangle it and fix it. That's why I was curious how the priest talked to you, because you might not remember what he said, but if he made you feel safe and comforted, that's the most important.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, I remember a feeling. I don't remember a feeling, I don't remember the words.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Isn't that interesting. We remember how people make us feel. We might not even remember if they're a man or a woman or anything, but we remember how they make us feel. The big thing for me in those moments, if I have a luxury of any time with a kid say, there's some time, maybe the parents are still in the hospital and going through the process of dying or on life support or something. What I really want to do with them is to reassure them. It's not their fault. There's nothing they could have done to cause this and they couldn't have fixed it. And this is a horrible story to have to have be your story and I wish it was different you, you know?
Speaker 3:and how can we support them in that and letting them feel those feelings and not telling them this, because someone tells you not to feel angry about something like that, you're gonna stuff it. You're gonna be walking around with that yeah you know, ready to pop. It's not kind to the self either, you know. So I am so sorry that happened to you. I can't imagine, do you? Were you really close to her?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, very. You lived with her um. I spent my. I had hippie parents. You had hippie parents. Yeah, cool they let me decide where. I lived very young well, so courts didn't do it no, and I I don't know why I picked my dad, which also made me feel guilty, you know later, especially when she died. And so, yeah, I don't think that was a good choice by them.
Speaker 3:I think there should have been some guidance in that right. That's a big choice for a 11-year-old, but they were also like 22 or something.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, they were so young. You know, when you think about your parents, they're always old. I felt like they were old people all the time.
Speaker 3:30 years old, they're old.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then, once you become that, you realize how young that is and how little you know.
Speaker 3:How little you are. You're such a new soul really in that way Wow.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, it's hard to blame them for any mistakes, because they were both very loving but very young.
Speaker 3:That's gracious of you.
Speaker 1:Because a lot of times we'd go.
Speaker 3:Oh, they could die. You know, they could have done this.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think that was me before. I think once I had my own kids and once I started to understand how hard of a job that is. And once again, once I'd be past their ages, at these points and realizing I don't know how, even having lived through it, I don't know if that happened to my kid, if they lost their mom, I don't know what I would do. Again, I'm almost 50 now, so it's, it's, and with all this experience and and I you know, and I don't know where to start right, if that happened and and there was no again, there was no support system it wasn't like now, no, yeah, where they're, like, here's the grief support place.
Speaker 3:When you here's this, let's talk to the teachers yes, yeah, everyone just kind of oh right yeah, it was, yeah, it was just. It happened and then life moved on that's a big task for a kiddo to have to walk through all that. How old are your kids now?
Speaker 1:they're eight and almost 13. Yeah, they're. They're around the same ages that I was, so I actually actually think about this and again, it gives me perspective into what my dad had to go through.
Speaker 3:Is your dad still alive? Yeah, do you talk to him about that we have Not a lot.
Speaker 1:I don't know how to, because I yeah, I mean, we have talked about it, yes, but I don't other than saying I don't think he could have done anything different, which I think is true, because I don't know, I don't think he had any of the skills, any of the support, any of the experience to do anything different.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:So I can't really there's not a lot for me to say.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or just saying what you just said to me, like you don't know how he could have done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think that. I hear that a lot from parents. When they're hitting their kids, are hitting the age. They're hitting an age where they outlive their folks and how it's um, they're sort of a haunting. It keeps coming back and you think on it and it gives you different perspective of the world. You know, and you. You're walking around with something that others don't have, or they have in different ways yeah you know.
Speaker 3:So we all, we all walking around with these broken hearts. Basically there's this I think it's a jewish saying of like god, or light, or grace or whatever we want to call, something loving can only enter through. A broken heart, right like a solid heart doesn't have a way in, you know. So I feel like sometimes those moments get you just. You're just so human and so tender.
Speaker 1:There's also the coin lyric, the coin of there's a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. But, you said it better there's a crack in everything and we want we don't want those cracks because they can hurt. Sometimes. They make you so beautiful and I bet you're an incredible dad.
Speaker 1:I, me and my wife, have very different parenting styles. My wife is very protective and I am the parent that throws the kids in the pool and say figure it out.
Speaker 3:the parent that throws the kids in the pool and say figure it out Baptism by fire, Go in yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I I mean Wow, because I believe that's so interesting. I feel like I'm raising adults and I keep thinking about you know. I want to raise independent people and I feel sometimes you know, when you protect someone, you're doing them a lot of damage.
Speaker 3:And this is so interesting because it's like when you said that, it kind of comes full circle to me. It's like you, just you got thrown into that with your mom yeah. You were thrown in the pool.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Maybe the fact that you found a resilience and you did move through, and obviously you've moved through other things yeah that you have sort of this trust within yourself yeah, that you yeah over time to your kids like they will come through if you keep overcoming things yeah and sometimes you fall like really hard.
Speaker 1:But if you keep doing that I think you get resilience yeah and I think with resilience you get freedom and I think being free is sort of the ultimate goal of being a human.
Speaker 3:It is. It's huge and it's interesting because you're in a chair.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you feel free?
Speaker 1:More free than most people I know.
Speaker 3:That's amazing. When did you start being in the chair?
Speaker 1:When did you start being in the chair? I have muscle dystrophy, which is a genetic disease. Both my parents had it without knowing it, because it's a recessive gene and so nobody knew.
Speaker 3:So it didn't present to them. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I was diagnosed at around age two. But there's a lot of different types of muscle dystrophy. Mine is very, very, very slow, you know there are ones that we die, you know, in your teens. You know there's all sorts of things and I'm almost 50 and I never I didn't know which one I had really. I got some diagnosis it was wrong. I got another one. It was also wrong, like it was wrong, wrong.
Speaker 3:So I had no idea what I had did your parents tell you what you had when you were young? Yeah, yeah, they were transparent with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I had my processing of it was in stages, because it wasn't clear what I had.
Speaker 1:I mean, it was clear there was muscle dystrophy, but it wasn't clear what kind, and so nobody could tell me or if they told me it was wrong, like how it would progress. So, as a kid, what I thought I had was a different walk, because I would walk on my toes more than other kids. And then, over time I realized no, there's more to it. I couldn't run as fast as the other kids. And in my teens I realized I couldn't jump as high Like it was stages. And then it was later in my teens, I realized I couldn't jump as high, like it was stages. And then it was later in my teens I realized, wow, it's getting harder and harder to walk upstairs. And then, slowly it was, it's getting harder to walk anywhere. And that became, you know, I would fall down a lot, I would have a hard time getting up, and then in around 25, I started using a wheelchair. Okay, yeah, so it's been almost half my life now.
Speaker 3:Wow, were you really angry with that?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, absolutely that was. I felt that was very unfair because I think with that kind of degenerative disease, you and if you get into a car accident and there's an event and there's a break, and that happens, and then that that's it, and then you like maybe you start to use a wheelchair, but there is like rehabilitation, there is like that was an event and you get the trauma is the one thing and you get to process it. The hard thing with this one is there's always a new trauma. There's always. I can always look back a new a year or two, and there's always something I realize oh, I used to be able to do this and I can't do that anymore, and it does.
Speaker 1:So it's just endless trauma, basically yes that was really really hard that's mean it's really hard to deal with.
Speaker 3:That's incredible that your spirit is so resilient with all this stuff, holly, I mean that's gosh.
Speaker 1:That's why that's where I, you know, that's where my parenting comes from. Going back to your, your question, because I feel I feel stronger than most people, I know, even though I, you know, I can't lift my hands or walk, and I think that is by having to deal with a lot of hard situations. You know, I know a lot of very fragile people. Obviously, they have their own things going on, but a lot of them had. Obviously, they have their own things going on, but a lot of them had. If your parents keep rescuing you, you never grow up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you want to rescue a little bit. Well, I don't, I want to. You want to be safe, so they can fall down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to be a safe harbor.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I want to send them off on own. Yeah, a little bit further each time and until you know, hopefully there are adults that don't need me yeah, the people in your life that are fragile.
Speaker 3:Do they sometimes bug you? Do you get irritated? Yes, yeah, I mean less now.
Speaker 1:yeah, because I've sort of it's not a competition of trauma, right.
Speaker 3:Sometimes that happens in the world and you're like stop it. Yes, you hear people talking like that. Oh no, my trauma is this, and they throw that word around so easy.
Speaker 1:Yes and and. But I and I used to be like in my thirties, I, you know, if someone was complaining about something, I would just, you know, just shut up, get over it. What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:But I think I have more grace about it now. I mean, if it's small, I'm still annoyed. It took me 20 minutes to park.
Speaker 3:I'm traumatized. I'm like you're not traumatized. It's LA, You've got to park.
Speaker 1:Everyone's life is hard in some way, yeah, and it's hard to them in a way that it's very hard for anyone else to understand.
Speaker 3:And there's moments that I mean not moments every day in the hospital when I see things where I'm like I've got my stuff, but I'm walking into a room where I'm hearing this story, I'm like, oh my gosh. And I think to myself but for the grace of God, there go I. That could be my story, and would I be able to navigate that story better than my own story? I don't know, because my imagination can't grab that.
Speaker 1:You know, do you have a spouse, I don't. Have. You had one?
Speaker 3:No, I've never been married.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:I kind of chose not to get married.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I was, yeah, I was wondering how, what it's like to come home from a hospital where all these things are happening. Yeah, and you know. Then maybe your spouse works at an office and complains about something.
Speaker 3:Well, I definitely have had, you know, significant relationships, for sure, and I've had that situation, yeah, and it made me really mad. I found myself getting intolerant and I had to really work on that. But it was also a story where it's like he was kind of laying on the couch watching movies, he's like this trust fund kid and I was like, oh, you know what I mean, I was at two deaths and this and that and everything and I want to come home to just, I want to safe harbor, as you said so beautifully. I want and I want to come home to just, uh, I want a safe harbor, as you said so beautifully. I want and I want to, just, not that, I want to come home and bring all that with me, because I really try to leave it, I hand it over to god when you have to be able to check out yeah, with the most trust possible.
Speaker 3:It's like there's something bigger than us that can carry these things, because we can't we, we just can't. And so handing it over to whatever your spirituality is, even when you feel like an atheist, or you say you're an atheist, which I totally, totally respect do you feel like there's something beyond you that an?
Speaker 1:architect or something. Recently, you know, I meditate. I've done different types of therapies plant-based therapies, you know different types of things and there are moments or sparks where I feel connected to a bigger presence.
Speaker 3:What does it feel like?
Speaker 1:It feels comforting. But the way I think about it is there is. I don't believe in a God in any traditional sense. I believe in sort of a mutual connected tissue between people and sort of a higher connection between all of us. That's what I feel when I have these moments Beautiful, that we're all connected and that we have some kind of a mutual goal in life which I don't know how to articulate. And I believe that we're all gods. We're all the gods of our little universe because we live so much in our you know, we live in our head. Like I meet you now we're talking. I might never meet you again, but you know your life.
Speaker 3:I hope I meet you again.
Speaker 1:Yes, but you know your life goes on, Like you know. You go, do all sorts of things. You've done all sorts of things up until this point, and you know my memory of you, my impression of you, is this moment.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And you know, even with my wife, who I've been with for 15 years, you know the person that I'm the most close to I still have no idea what's going on with her. You know, or anyone Right, you know, or anyone Right, you know, it's impossible. You have no idea what anyone is thinking or feeling, right, you don't even know how they see colors or how they hear sounds. That's so true, and so it's just these sort of in my mind. We're all these little gods of our worlds. They're all very different.
Speaker 3:This is really mystical.
Speaker 2:This doesn't sound like an atheist to me.
Speaker 3:This is very mystical and we're changed. I'm changed by meeting you.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And allowing that to be is, I think, a very spiritual journey. Yeah, I think a very spiritual journey. Yeah, because we can move through in a very benign way of not letting anything sort of touch us.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We can just oh well, that's da-da, you know? Mm-hmm, that's great. Oh, I've got my stuff, I'm good, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And not letting sort of souls touch each other, and I think that's a vulnerable, it's a risk and it's superhuman to feel yourself connected to to go into other people's stories, and that's why I love the work I do, because I have no idea when I get to the hospital what's going to happen that day.
Speaker 3:I have no idea, unless I know I'm following somebody, but still and I just like wow, and that's where my faith sort of. I'll come out of certain rooms and say, wow, god, okay, you know, thanks for that. Or who is the chaplain in that room? You know like who? Especially with children, some of the things they say to me and kids that are the kids that are dying and the things they say when you, it's like so spiritual and so illuminating.
Speaker 3:I was with this little boy five years old, and his mom died and I had the luxury of time with him because it was a process, it was cancer, it was a process of a couple of weeks, so I was able to, you know, before she came to a place in her process where she wasn't responsive and stuff, I was able to talk with. Her process where she wasn't responsive and stuff I was able to talk with her, understand their connection, deep, beautiful connection. No, dad in the picture, this was his whole life. Yeah, he was this wise little, magnificent spirit and they didn't necessarily have a faith. They were mystical, you know, they loved butterflies and the park and the ocean and all these wonderful things and they talked about being connected and always and things like that. It was very loving and so I was there when she died and I was with him. So I'm standing at the bed with him. She had this sort of lovely she just left. They had, you know, they had palliative care with giving her the meds to help her, which not help her die, but just help with the pain. And, um, we're standing there and the doctor's like, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry she's gone.
Speaker 3:And he was like, you know, he was really sad and he did some breathing and he did some crying and he just stood there and I just stood by him, you know, and I sort of touched him a little on the shoulder and I just said I'm so sorry, buddy, I'm sorry, I wish this was different. And he took a couple breaths and he said to me well, I guess she's all done with school. And I was like, oh my gosh, she's done. And he said it. He said it, holly, in a way that was like he was convicted and comforted and he was totally like this is so awful and I have to let go of her for now, in a way right, because they had talked about meeting again in a long time, because she would emphasize that, because he was five and he, she just wanted him to live.
Speaker 3:But the fact that he came to that I never heard them talking about that, I never heard that. And he said that I guess she's done with school. And I said oh my gosh, what a, what an amazing way to come to this. And I said who told you that? And he said I did, it was his own place. And I went okay, I what do I know? You know what I mean? I just and that was one of those moments did you hire him, you get a 403b kid. He was magnificent. I I'll never forget him.
Speaker 3:I can see him yeah I'll never forget him and that impact and that was one of those things where I walked out of the room and I went, and I'll often go into the stairwell and stand there for a minute and just talk to God like, wow, okay, got it. You know what I mean. I was like that was amazing, Thank you for that. And then that's the thing where not unlike the stories that you've had in your life, where you can have these things that touch you so deeply, that are so unfair, and then have this profound beauty in them. Like that I always feel like there's always in every terror there's beauty that comes out of that.
Speaker 3:Even you know 9-11, all these different horrible things that have happened along, you know our fires are the things that we've gone through, your mom somewhere in there, and it doesn't always mean it is immediate. That was an immediate beauty. Sometimes it's way down the road, Maybe it hasn't come to you, Maybe that beauty hasn't landed in your life yet, you know. But those are the things that I hear and I share them at times not all the time and then I remember them and I write them down and then I reflect back on them and I'm like you know, there's no monopoly to me on God's touch Because then, with Jewish people, Hindu, atheist, all kinds of people, in the last moments and I've seen them all see something amazing. And I've seen them, I've heard things from them and I've seen it In the moment when they pass, I see the wash of incredible peace that comes over people that we can't understand. Those are some juicy moments for me that I just relish. Do you feel like there's a next place?
Speaker 1:No, I don't feel like there's a next place. I don't feel it. I'm not saying there isn't, but I definitely don't feel like there's a next place.
Speaker 3:I'm not, yeah, I don't feel it.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying there isn't, but I definitely don't feel it. I don't know. I mean, I definitely I've often wanted to be religious. I think there's comfort in it of believing in something like that, and I think I see people who are very comforted by it. But that's not how I feel. But I feel because of that. I feel what we have is so precious, because if this is it, I'm going to ride the hell out of it.
Speaker 3:And it's something you have.
Speaker 1:Maybe there's a bonus.
Speaker 3:Yeah, a bonus reel.
Speaker 1:Bonus round after this one. I don't know, but at least I know that I have this one.
Speaker 3:You have this one.
Speaker 1:And so yeah.
Speaker 3:For sure.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go for it.
Speaker 3:And it's really tender.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Do you ever feel your mom? Do you ever feel like a little nugget of her or a?
Speaker 1:wash, not in that way, but more in a memory way of you know I have you know she's alive in my memory.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do you dream about her?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all the time.
Speaker 3:All the time. Yeah, oh, wow, that's amazing. That's really cool, because I feel like that's also our subconscious is such a mystery.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And dreams are. I feel like dreams are, for sure, a way of communication with us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean again, I don't. I mean in my my sort of scientific way of looking at it is it's my memories talking to me and they're helping me process something that's going on in the moment. You know I'm going back into old memories to make sense of new things.
Speaker 3:Are you back to that age when you're dreaming about her, or are you?
Speaker 1:now. Usually now, it's usually that I meet her now.
Speaker 3:And she looks.
Speaker 1:She looks the same.
Speaker 3:And she looks probably perfect.
Speaker 1:Yes, because she died before. You know kids have a trajectory, like you have. You know the first, however many years. I'm assuming you have decently good parents. Your parents are kind of perfect for the first 10 years or so.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And that's when she died.
Speaker 3:So she didn't have a chance to mess it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I never got to know like the real person, like I did with my dad, who was also again, even though he was, you know, he was an alcoholic. During those first 10 years I still thought about him as perfect and then he sobered up and then through the years I've seen him as become just a person to me and understanding that he has his faults and he has his charms and he has his mistakes and he has his weaknesses and strengths. And I never got that with her. So there is this sort of perfect image of not the real person.
Speaker 3:It's the sort of the angelic version of a person, but real in the level of the love, absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If it had been five years later, I think I would have seen more. Like 10 years later I would have had a fuller picture of her. God, that's just fascinating. Yeah, if it had been five years later, I think I would have seen more. Like 10 years later, I would have had a fuller picture of her.
Speaker 3:God, that's just fascinating. Yeah, 10 years is not long, kind of 11 years and it's so interesting to me too, like the first years of your life. You know how we don't remember anything, and I was thinking that the other day when I was visiting with this little kid, who was adorable and even Jahan's little one. I feel like they impact us so much and they don't even remember it. You know what I mean. Yeah, they just people. Oh, look what he did, so cute, oh, and they blow their first kiss and they say something silly and we all laugh and we throw these huge parties for two years old, you know, ponies, whatever, and they're just so present. And then they turn 10 and go.
Speaker 3:I don't remember two yeah and I'm like what does that mean? Like that's such an interesting design to me. Why is it designed that way? Why do we not get to remember our birth and our first birthday?
Speaker 1:there are, I mean there are people that remember more there are. I don't remember my birth, though no, me neither, although during one of my experiences I felt I was reliving my birth really.
Speaker 3:But you know like physically, and everything too, like coming through.
Speaker 1:Yeah whoa, uh Whoa, but I don't, you know. I don't know what that was, but there are, you know. I think there is a huge benefit to forgetting. I don't think I think there's a reason why the brain does not remember. I know some people who remember a lot. Most of them are miserable because they can relive all of the bad things that they've gone through.
Speaker 3:Do you think they remember the bad more than the good and they kind of ride down one side? I think we all do. Yeah, I think we all remember.
Speaker 1:you know, we can have a great day and then someone walks into us and that's what we remember and doesn't say sorry or something you know.
Speaker 3:We're perseverant that was so rude.
Speaker 1:I think that's how we develop, like the dangers that we experience in our lives have to impact us a lot more than the the fun things, because the dangers are actually things that can maybe kill us or harm us in real ways. So that stands out and that you know. Our memories sort of latch on to patterns of bad things and if you remember all of them then it's so easy to create a blanket of horrible things.
Speaker 3:You're down the rabbit hole yeah.
Speaker 1:You can connect all these thoughts of like oh yeah, this happened, this happened, this happened, and you can create a narrative of that. You're an idiot because you remember all of your mistakes, yeah. Or everyone hates me because you remember all of the small microaggressions that were real or not real yeah. I know a lot of people that are in that space that wrap themselves in that blanket of.
Speaker 3:Do you go into that space?
Speaker 1:No, I forget everything.
Speaker 3:You forget everything. It's great You're going to forget today.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's one of my coping mechanisms, is it? I think it's probably my brain. It's just like you can't remember all this stuff. There's not enough room.
Speaker 3:that's too hard you got to clear it out, to focus on today and try and enjoy what's happening. That's why I like to remind how people remind me who they are, you know, because those, those good days are so precious yeah, but there's if you want to.
Speaker 1:They're all good days yeah, they're all good days we all have like moments of hardship and pain, and and that we can't avoid that. But suffering is a choice, and so we all you know it's. You can decide what you take away from a thing yeah, from an interaction or from a day, and if your highlight of the day was something bad, you're very probably selecting that as the highlight of the day. You know you missed the part where you heard a good joke.
Speaker 3:Had a delicious cup of coffee or a great Coke.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or saw something beautiful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or whatever it is. If you don't pay attention, those things just fade away and all like it's just like oh, it was this person was rude. This happened, you know, and you can have like you can line up any day. You can line up like three to five things and say like oh, that that wasn't good for sure.
Speaker 3:Do you have animals in your life? We have two cats brothers, yeah because I feel like that's dogs and cats. They don't remember, yeah, they don't hold. They might remember someone, especially dogs that they don't like, and they'll be like yeah, I'm not going over there, that's fine. That's kind of cool yeah but they do that.
Speaker 3:But, boy, when I get home from work and I have a cat and a dog, I'm like everything's just fine. Yeah, because I'm like I love you. I love you, where have you been right? They just go crazy and they just end the food and just the cuddling and the like. Last night I woke up and I had a hard time getting back to sleep and the cat just kept coming up and repositioning himself on me in such a, you know, like when the purr is kind of resonating into your face.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Do you purr? Have you tried purring yourself? No, it's great.
Speaker 3:Do you do it with them?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't purr, but I, you know, to calm myself down, I hum, I'll do like and find like it takes you.
Speaker 3:Find my ground, find a connection to the world I love that.
Speaker 1:It's like chanting. Yeah, it is a bit like chanting and it doesn't, and it's just finding like depends on what I'm feeling, but it's about finding a frequency that calms me down and calms the body down in the nervous system and it gets me back to a place of it's like rocking a child, and humming or singing to the child gently right, you're like oh, I'm just going into that you know, in childbirth women will moan a lot yeah because it's just a sort of way to to heal the body. So I I think that's.
Speaker 3:I don't know why cats do it, but I think it's probably something similar, it's just I love when they do it yes and I have a sound machine on because I live on a busy street in la and so I always say alexa's off, stop, so I can hear him like, and I'm like, unless I was just receiving this, I was like let it go into my heart because it's so and it's so primal and it's organic.
Speaker 1:You should try, it's been around forever trying to match the frequency.
Speaker 3:I'm going to try that tonight Because I've done at the hospital. We have in our chapel. We have all different worship services and I lead a Reiki and we have Christian Muslim prayer, jewish Shabbat service and I go to all of them. I can go to all of them. Everyone is just lovely. When I go into the Muslim prayer and I hear them singing they're singing in Arabic.
Speaker 3:They're singing in a language I don't know. It's sort of a chanting of their holy scripture. And then I go into Shabbat services and they're singing in Hebrew prayers and you get a piece of paper and you can. It's written in Hebrew. You know where you read opposite way we do left to right and then it's transcribed on the side with English. It's beautiful, but I and I don't read Hebrew, but I just it's kind of that thing. I'm going into this and listening to this language that I don't understand. But I know it's like holy and I know that it's. It's that tradition calling out thanking God, loving God, all these things asking for intervention, and I just get to a place where it's like, oh, it's so great Because I'm just a visitor but I want to really take it in and it's kind of that same idea of like it doesn't make sense to me, but it makes complete sense.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's the same with a lot of meditation, transcendental meditation. You get a mantra that is, you know, an ancient word that you don't understand, but it's the sound of it.
Speaker 3:Do you know the meaning of the word?
Speaker 1:I'm not an expert in this. I have a mantra. I don't know what it means and I haven't looked it up and I don't want to know if it has a meaning, maybe it does, because that's not the point to me, the point is the sound of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and do you say it out loud or silently to yourself?
Speaker 1:It depends. If I'm in good control of myself, I can say it to myself, but if when I'm starting off, I usually say it out loud, it sort of reverberates around my body.
Speaker 3:Do you do that every?
Speaker 1:day. I try to do it twice a day.
Speaker 3:In the morning and evening or different.
Speaker 1:Yes, a great week would be where I do it twice a day, like three or four days, it's not, I don't hit twice a day, every day.
Speaker 3:It's quite disciplined to do that.
Speaker 1:It is, are you a?
Speaker 3:disciplined guy you must be.
Speaker 1:It goes back and forth. I can be very disciplined, but then I don't like routine. But I know how good routine is for me, so I try to go back to it, but then I get bored. Routine is hard. Yeah, when I'm in a good routine I feel great. When I feel great, I feel bored. You got to mix it up, yeah.
Speaker 3:Mess it. Mess it yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't feel great. You get bored, yeah, when I'm comfortable. I get bored when.
Speaker 3:I know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1:I can't do it anymore.
Speaker 3:So what do you do to challenge yourself all the time? Are you like a big learner?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also, sometimes it's just I'll just break something, not physically, but you know, I'll just something I've learned how to do. I will start doing it completely differently, or I will. You know, if things are going somehow, I will go to another city or go to another place and just completely change everything and see what happens.
Speaker 3:Like physically move your whole family to a new place, or you just take a trip.
Speaker 1:We used to be. We used to, me and my wife when we had our first child, we moved to Tokyo and we then we lived in different cities for years, multiple years, where we would travel around, spend like three to six months in each country oh, that's so cool and then go somewhere else. Now the kids are older. My wife is more of a homebody now than me, so right now, for example, I'm in LA and she's not. She's at home, but she came with me for the first four weeks or something, Okay, and then I'm going home in a couple of days and I'll be home for a little while, but then I'll probably have to go again somewhere and hopefully she'll come with me, but it's, that's amazing.
Speaker 3:Up to her, what a great privilege to be able to travel the way you do.
Speaker 1:Yes, there was something you had a story with, the Salem Witch Trials. Oh yeah, what is that?
Speaker 3:Well, I found out. I didn't know this when I was a kid, but I found out later. One of our cousins in Boston did the family tree. We found out that, like nine generations back on my well, it's my dad's mother who died in childbirth. So he never met her, but way back, her last name was Towne T-O-W-N-E, and so they found out that like nine generations back in aunties there were these three sisters, the Towne sisters. Two were hung as witches and they were all tried as witches. One lived the youngest and there's three girls in my family. I'm the youngest, but Elson found out this incredible history that they because my family got here in like 1638 or something some of the first people to come over from Europe Obviously not the first Americans, because we know who they are, but so they came over and it was just fascinating to learn this. I didn't know it when I was like little.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I was really mystical and kind of witchy and had a lot of kind of sixth sense stuff and prophetic dreams and just things like that and I could sort of like when my grandpa my Kelly side, the Irish guy, died, I could sort of like when my grandpa, my Kelly side, the Irish guy, died, he showed up in my room and I saw him and you know just things like that that a lot of kids have that stuff. But I found that out and I thought this is fascinating to me, that these are my, this is my ancestors, these are my aunties. When I went to go I learned Reiki, which is this I'm sure you know. So it's at the hospital. We use it for relaxation. It really hurt. It really helps people when they're hurting, when they're exhausted and they can't sleep when they're anxious. So I was going through that training.
Speaker 3:It was this really cool, interesting woman. She was a Hindu priestess and her husband was a Hindu priest and they were speaking of LA with all these amazing things. They were in West Los Angeles and just fascinating people. And so there's this whole thing. They teach you how to do it. You get all these, you get this entombment thing where they sort of give it to you. It's almost like the laying on of hands in the Catholic Church. They sort of like now you have it like you're knighted right, kind of thing. So they're doing this whole ceremony with me. It was really incredible.
Speaker 3:And then she's like okay, to become a reiki master is what they call it. So then she said I'm going to give you a treatment now. So she's giving me this treatment and she's like do you I get spirit guides come through and talk to me and I'm going to ask them, to ask your spirit guides, if there's anything that you should know. And she said do you want me to say it out loud? So she sort of gets into a meditative state and things just come to her and I'm like, yeah, I want to hear it right. It's like yes, because she says sometimes people don't want to know. And I'm like I want to know. She knew I was a chaplain. She didn't know anything else about my life, like my family, nothing.
Speaker 3:And so she's doing this whole thing and she comes to the top of the head and she's working on me and then she starts talking and she's like there's these three women that have been on the left side of you your whole life, whole life. They've been walking with you. And I see them and they're in these long black robe, these long black dresses, and they love you. And I'm like the three, the three women, the sisters right. And then she's saying they've always felt like you're priestly and you know that you're a healer and all this stuff. And then she said and I see, I see you somewhere Maybe it's back east and you're walking through a forest and you're picking up stones and you're finding herbs and you're making things and you're helping soothe people. And she's like talking about me being alive in that time and being one of these women or something. And she said they want you to know that you should own it, you should receive it, do this work, do this.
Speaker 3:And I had just got this big job and so it was kind of the beginning of this, like, as you know, trying to prove yourself, do the best you can, and all that stuff. And I'm receiving this mystical message from these, these women who were accused of witches, and it was just powerful for me and so I feel very like when I was a kid, during halloween, I always had to be a witch, like I'm a witch, I'm a witch I would do. I do practice things and I would take my mom's lotions and make special lotions and stuff, you know, and I was always really like that kind of this weirdo kid and it it just gave me I don't know it was that thing. It's like oh, that makes sense to me now. This is part of my ancestry. It was really validating and it was really fun and I started, you know, digging in and there's a movie, I think it's Lynn Redgrave plays one of them.
Speaker 3:There's like a movie made about him. There's all these books. There's a statue, I think, at yale university, because what happened is, I mean, it was a horrific time. It wasn't. They weren't witches, they were smart, right, they were what were they charged with?
Speaker 3:they were charged with. It was like healing or pretending you could heal or you know, things like that, yeah, and they would always be very suspicious of because I think they were widowed, which, which you know happened a lot coming to the new country and things, and a lot of those people that came some of the early ones that came from like Britain and Ireland, which is my background from them had some money, so they'd have land, you know, and if you're accused of a witch, they take your land, all that kind of stuff, and you're mystical. They were very spiritual, they were very Christian, but very mystical Christian like me. So they were inclusive. So that didn't really make them happy.
Speaker 3:They wanted people and what they would do with people often is and mostly women not a surprise. They would put them in the courts and they would say you need to say the lord's prayer, you know our father, who are in heaven, you need to say that in front of everyone here. Perfectly, if you have a hiccup or a skip or something, we know you're a witch, okay, so they do all this crazy stuff. They'd float them if they sang it was just crazy.
Speaker 1:Yes, barbaric.
Speaker 3:So I don't know like the super big details I still want to explore more but I just loved that I found that out and that she said they're with me. You know, they're like, she's like, they're with you on your left side, which in in eastern reiki the left is the female and the right is the male. You know for lack of better word right that we all have parts of the self and so I thought, oh my gosh, they're with me. And then when she kind of came out of it and we were talking, I was like it was one of those things like maybe you get to when you meditate, where I was kind of high.
Speaker 3:I felt high in like a really good way. It was just I remember driving home, thinking should I be driving right now? Because I was so like spiritually touched that I was feeling like and I remember I have to go way back to find it but I did like a voice memo on my phone like so this just happened, you know, and and so I feel a real through line and a kinship with them and I always want to honor them and I feel like I think like there's an ancestral pull to us.
Speaker 1:Do you have anything in your life, like that, where there's like well, I think warriors or something you know I don't have, I don't know the deep history of my family, but there was. There was a study done on mice by, you know, one of those horrible scientists research yeah. Where they put I think it was lavender smell in the air and once the lavender smell hit, the mice would get electrocuted.
Speaker 1:Oh I don't know how they cook up these things, but did that over and over again and so you know, every time the mouse would hear the, ultimately it was like conditioning. It was like once you smell the lavender you get stimulated, like it's almost like you get the shock. Even though you don't get the shock, you know, it's like Pavlov's dogs. You know it's like you get. You know there is this place.
Speaker 3:So you'd physically feel a shock and no shock was given.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would release all the enzymes and the brain would sort of react. They were tracking the brain to see like what the chemical reaction was and it was like they were getting a shock. And so they did this with the first generation and then the mice had children or mice and they would put lavender in the air and not do the electrocution and the brains would behave the same. Oh my gosh, and they did this for 16 generations 16 generations and it was still.
Speaker 1:If you got a lavender hit like it would trigger a response like less and less over the generations, but still 16 generations back, and so it's it's it's past, like it's trauma, is passed through dna, us.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, if you have that in your family, you know again, there's multiple ways of looking at it, whether you believe it's their spirits or whether it's their DNA, just like the trauma of their experiences I don't know when they had the kids if it was like and all of that you know there's, it lives in us and so if you, if you have a horrible experience let's say your grandparents had a horrible experience If you're Jewish and there's the Holocaust experience, Right, that trauma is still very much, not just in the verbal history of it, but it can be in your body.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's like a real thing that is activating and triggering because it's the body. I mean there's evolutionary reasons for this.
Speaker 3:It's like like survival stuff again, do you think?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was. It's basically you know if you, if you're able to do this, you're able to pass on if there's a new threat. Because if there is a new threat in your environment and you don't do this, then every generation has to learn again and again and again and again about the new threat until, over time, there is this evolution of your body. But this is a way for the body to learn without having to do it over thousands of years.
Speaker 3:It's just a way for us to learn about new things and pass it on without it, yeah, needing all that because I feel, like the nine or however many generations back to that time, like, for me, it's this, it's this really, um, I want to make it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I want to be a woman in this role and do this work to honor them they had children they did yeah, and then it came because my grandmother, their children were probably very traumatized by this, so there's a way that that that is how it passed on as well right that it passed on it because you know, then there would be.
Speaker 1:You know, if you, I don't know, I'm just making stuff up now but if you imagine your, your mother, gets burned or hanged for being a witch, that must cause like a real infatuation with being a witch and a real terror. Like you would be drawn to it I was super drawn to it, but I didn't.
Speaker 3:But then again, you know, all the kids are drawn to something yes, sure but I was like, oh, I really like this and oh, you know, and seeing mystical things and feeling not just the presence of God, but just like there's interventions, there's things come through, there's spirits. How can there not be Right? How can they just go? Oh, it's gone and there's no. There's no sort of remnants or artifacts of lives that have been lived.
Speaker 1:Well, this way there is. There's actually like DNA that have been lived. Well, this way there there is. There's actually like dna. Even if you don't believe in the spiritual part of it right, personally, I don't there's all of those people live in you and all of their experiences live in you but that's very mystical because if it's very scientific, and that's incredible that they had that reaction, that they would still have that smell, you know do you have a way to scale your practice? I mean, you're doing one-on-one mostly.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Do you think about writing or speaking engagements or something bigger, like bigger, but you know where there's a bigger audience that is able to absorb what you're doing.
Speaker 3:You're saying yeah Well, I did a podcast with Nikki Boyer called Near Death and it's on Apple Podcasts. It's all over the place. It's really popular. Okay, it's a lot of my stories and she and I.
Speaker 1:You said that you did. Was that in the past? You don't do that anymore, okay.
Speaker 3:We haven't done new ones now, yeah, but I'm starting a new podcast with a friend of mine, taylor Kaufman, that we've just started it and it's called How's your Spirit? So I'm talking with people and so I do a lot of public speaking at the hospital and then teaching to the young doctors and other students and things like that. But I'm definitely going to write a book about everything too.
Speaker 1:Have you begun?
Speaker 3:I have so many different books going Like I want one for kids about taking care of their spirit. But I'm going to start on one too. And I know we're also talking about if we could make this into something where I have a friend who's a producer that we're talking about maybe making an unscripted show where it would be this kind of conversation or accompanying people on sort of the journey, maybe as they're getting towards the end of life, to help them as much as possible to have a good death also just exploring spirituality and things like that. Like it always doesn't always have to be death, but I think it's. I think it's kind of great that we're talking about it more. I feel like we're talking about it more than I think in the great that we're talking about it more. I feel like we're talking about it more than I think in the time that you're talking about. People talked about it all the time in Rome because it was before them in a way that it was constantly like In front of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not here though.
Speaker 3:It's not here. Some people go through their whole life they're not on a company, someone. They don't lose a parent until way later in life and then sometimes death looks so clean and easy that we don't really see the cracking open of the spirit. You know, as you get closer, most people get pretty cracked open emotionally and you know, wrestling with questions and making meaning of their life and making meaning of their death and so many things come up. It's usually it's kind of a juicy time. Are you ready to die? Spiritually? I feel like I am. I feel like if it came that, I would feel ready that way. Physically, no, probably. I'm kind of I know this sounds weird. I'm kind of excited for it In a weird way, like I'm looking forward to see it, to get to that place.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm excited to because of what I've seen and because what I've seen, people see sharing with me what they're seeing and stuff that I feel like I'm excited for that part to see the face of God, to see my dogs again that have grown. I mean, if that's even.
Speaker 1:I don't even know. Do you think God has a face?
Speaker 3:I think God can have a face. I think that God can have a face. I think you know the whole idea that we're created in the image of God and whether you're from Iceland or Minnesota, we all usually have kind of a similar thing going on. We don't have 20 arms, and so I feel like I think God has a face, in a sense, that we're going to be able to be seen and look into the face. That's that whole idea of the beautification I think it's called, where, when you die, you get to see the face of God. And I often pray that with people as they're dying. If I know what their belief system is, I pray that they get brought home with mercy and grace and they see God's face, because I feel like that's that would be the moment I would say, oh, I'm home, like I came from here. Now I'm home again, that you're safe, because I think, well, you know your dad. When kids come, they're just like babies are amazing. I think there's a reason. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:The architectural design of a glorious little bundle of like yeah, there's no room for anything, but good, really, right.
Speaker 1:I mean, they're just yeah, I mean they're exceptionally cute so that we keep them alive.
Speaker 3:Right, and then you get really old and you might be exceptionally cute when you're 90. Yeah, so people help you stay alive. Right, look at that cute old guy. But I feel like they're just buzzing. I see a lot of babies. Just on Wednesday I had a super healthy, brand new. It was Ash Wednesday and so I went to Catholic patients to see if they wanted ashes, and one of them was a young couple with a brand new, perfect, healthy baby, which is always a treat. It's like no, no one's sick in here.
Speaker 1:Everything went great, it's always a treat for me.
Speaker 3:And she was just like. I mean, she was just like so glowing with just light, and to me, God, like I felt like God just filled her it was really beautiful and to pray. She just got here and the parents, of course, were just freaking out because it's their first baby. They're like ah, ah right, what do I do? Which was super cute, and the grandma was like people have been doing this for millions of years Calm down.
Speaker 3:You're going to be okay, what do I do? But just blessing the kid. Did you feel that? When you saw your son, the first son, did you feel a light?
Speaker 1:not in the way you're describing, no, I mean definitely I felt love, uh, and I felt a connection and I felt responsibility that's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting, no yeah, but I didn't feel it. What do you describe it now? I don't really feel that.
Speaker 3:Do you wish you felt it? Have you ever felt like? Oh, I wonder what that feels like.
Speaker 1:I think if I could get one wish, oh, at least I've got three wishes, Three wishes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's have three. One is too slim.
Speaker 1:One of them would definitely be that I truly believed in a benevolent higher being that was taking care of the world and the afterlife.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:But I don't.
Speaker 3:Do you think it's a lot? Because this world is so hard?
Speaker 1:It's very hard for me to believe in God and then go watch a documentary about a famine.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or a kid getting brain cancer Right, that doesn kid getting brain cancer.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:I don't, that doesn't compute for me.
Speaker 3:See, I feel like this world is the wrong world and that's the right world and I feel like part of this world. This is one of my favorite patients I ever had was this Vietnam vet who was unhoused and schizophrenic and couldn't have been sweeter and he would not be housed.
Speaker 3:he wouldn't let us he was one of those claustrophobic, just to be inside kind of guy, had seen so much, and he would come in the hospital to find me and he came through our ed, a lot different things, he had a lot of tummy stuff. But he would come and find me and he'd say I want to see reverend kelly, I want to see pray with her, until the security would tummy stuff. But he would come and find me and he'd say I want to see Reverend Kelly, I want to see pray with her, and so the security would let him in and he would come and sit with me and he would ask me to pray for all these different things Pray for my finances, pray for this, pray for this. And then I said I really hope that some of these things come true for you. And he said well, jesus is not my bellhop.
Speaker 3:I loved that because that's how I sort of see it is like the miracle is that God is present and a witness and a loving, compassionate presence. But we're not puppets, right, and we can't say end this war, lord, you know, and he'll just do it. It's more of like I'm with you on this journey, like the little boy said, this is school, like I'm with you on the journey. I'm going the safe place. I'm gonna be there with you. You're not alone in this. I love you.
Speaker 3:I see everything that's happening, but I'm not gonna just move the glass over there for you. I know that you're gonna have to do and go through what you have to go through to come back to me and in that meaning, these horrible things happen, because these things that happen are not of god, they're of what men do, people do, and I also feel that people can't get to the depth of the dark things that they do without a little help. You know what I mean. I think there's that evil piece to the world and I think the god piece is there too, like turning yourself towards what is good and wholesome and true and no, and like always turning towards that, even though all this stuff is happening, and knowing that somehow, in the end, you know the suffering wasn't for for nothing, if that makes sense I understand you.
Speaker 1:I don't agree, but I understand what you're saying yeah, no, it's good it it's good.
Speaker 3:It's a good discussion.
Speaker 1:There's a joke that is it's a Jewish man who survived the Holocaust. He comes and meets God and he tells a Holocaust joke to God and God says that's not funny. And the Jewish man says well, I guess you have to be there, had to be there.
Speaker 3:Oh, interesting, wow. So it's like there's places that God can't touch.
Speaker 1:Well, to me it is sort of like the Holocaust is a proof that God does not exist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or if he exists, he's either not a very nice person or he's not omnipotent Because he didn't change it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the joke is really that God wasn't there.
Speaker 3:Right and he's saying it to God.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But he must believe in God. If he's talking to God, well, it's a joke. And the other joke I like is the good news is there's a God. The better news is it's not me. There's this thing that's so talk about news, is it's not me? You know, like there's this thing that's so talk about mystery. It's so mysterious and so big.
Speaker 3:And then I feel like there's moments where the inbreaking of god is super obvious. And then there's times where I'm like, even though I always feel the presence, I feel the holy spirit all the time, there's times where I'm like this is horrible. I've worked with children that were shaken, babies that will never walk because someone shook them, things like that, that there's so much injustice that it's hard to understand it. And I also feel like there's so many things that we just never get to understand, we don't get to know, and that in the next place we'll understand things or something will make sense in a way that doesn't here. So that's kind of the the great, like you said, like the great awakening kind of thing, or that it's the right place or it's a big deep nothing or it's a big deep nothing, and then all this stuff we did is just or is it?
Speaker 3:more of what you leave as a legacy.
Speaker 1:Like what do you do to make?
Speaker 3:the world better.
Speaker 1:Legacy. Maybe I think that legacy is an ego word. I think it's.
Speaker 3:It is an ego word. You're right, big time.
Speaker 1:It's more about the way I make sense of it is that I got to be alive and that was pretty amazing. Yeah, I don't need anything more like that, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's's pretty big gift. It's a huge gift, it's a miracle. I can use that word because well, it's very unlikely.
Speaker 1:That's another way of saying a miracle yeah, because there's tons.
Speaker 3:I see so many things happen with pregnancies and everything that I'm always like, wow, when a kid comes out, okay, they're kind of okay, I'm like you know what I mean because there's so many things that go wrong, so many pregnancies that don't happen. Babies come in and they don't thrive. You know things that happen, so it's always. It's. It's really incredible to be given this gift yeah even though there's millions of us walking around. It's fascinating, but your, your wish is really fascinating too, that that you could have that.
Speaker 1:Well, it feels comforting as hell, Like that you know, actually believing that.
Speaker 3:Or feeling it. It's more like a conviction. Yeah, it's a conviction.
Speaker 1:That would make so many things so much easier.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I don't see it as like a you know sort of something that makes it easier for me. It just it's this kind of profound knowing and it doesn't mean you won't suffer. Sure, because that's where I get pissed when I, when these like super, super religious people way, way, way on the one side of it will be in the hospital saying, well, we're going to wait for a miracle to happen.
Speaker 3:And the patient's brain dead and we know that they're dead. Yeah and like no, they push back on the doctors. I understand that they want that and we all wanted it to be a different story, you know, and they pit God against the docs.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, where I get mad is when people refuse treatment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm going to heal.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that even if you're religious. There's another story, joke of a man in the middle of a flood on the top of his roof. You heard this, yes, and there's a guy on a boat that comes in, yeah, and he's like no Wait for God.
Speaker 1:God is going to save me, and there's a helicopter and it's like no, God is going to save me and there's some other guy I can't remember what he did and then he dies and goes to God and it's like why didn't you save me? It's like I sent you a helicopter, I sent you a boat. You know, I gave you all of these things and you didn't use them, you didn't take them.
Speaker 3:And that's how I feel God is in the world. It's subtle, there's nuances. Sometimes we don't see it, sometimes it's obvious. And when I'm with patients like that, where they're like, no, I'm not going to do chemo, I'm just going to pray and stuff, and I'm like that's fantastic. To pray, I want, that's super important. But also, somebody spent their whole life making a medicine to help you. Do you think God's in the medicine? God's in the medicine? God's in the medicine, the brilliance of the surgeons. There's a gift they've been given. Let them use that gift. If you want to say it's a god-given gift that they actualized, then let's use that gift and get in there. I get like that too. I do, holly. I get really like oh my gosh. And then they're at the end of their life and they refused all interventions and they're pissed and they're. Then they're like the end of their life and they refused all interventions and they're pissed, and then they're like where's god?
Speaker 3:well, god was in the chemo god was a surgeon. It's really interesting to go that far because I see it as a you're in a team, you're working with god, you're not. You can't just lay back and go. God, I want a pors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or you know what I mean. I mean, that's where, yes, what I don't get is a kid getting brain cancer. What's the point of that?
Speaker 3:There isn't a point, it's bad.
Speaker 1:That's where I'm like.
Speaker 3:It's a bad accident in biology. It's bad, yeah. We don't know why those things happen. It's horrible, yeah, and I feel like it is.
Speaker 1:That's where it breaks down for me. It's not in my life of being like, oh I'm, you know, because I've had a lot of things to be very grateful for.
Speaker 3:You've had a lot of things that have been pretty bad. Yes, Pretty really hard yeah.
Speaker 1:But many more things that were great. Like you know, if I did the tally, it would be overwhelmingly in the good column. For someone like me to believe in God would be relatively easy. I think I would be like, yeah, I got very lucky. But when I look at other people I'm like that doesn't. The argument doesn't hold.
Speaker 3:So when your mom had her faith, you said she had a Christian faith. Do you feel like her death? Do you think she went to where she believed she was going then? No, you don't, no, no, you don't, no. Yeah, did she talk to you about her faith at all? Yeah, as a kid. Yeah, did you feel like you had some of it as a kid, even or no?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, I had, yes, and again, it was very comforting. It was very, very comforting, yeah, and it's a fairytale. It's beautiful, mm, yeah, but it is a fair tale.
Speaker 3:That's fair. And I also think it's entirely fair and makes sense and the Bible's full of stories of people just raging mad at God, just calling out.
Speaker 1:If people believe. I don't want to talk anyone off their belief Because, again, I think it's a very precious thing to have.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whatever they believe. Yeah, if it helps them, I think it's great, and if it doesn't hurt other people, then I think it's fantastic.
Speaker 3:It shouldn't hurt anyone. Yeah, that's not the point. Yeah, unfortunately, we're in a world that a lot of it is hurting. Yes, and that's the. Lord's name in vain stuff I'm talking about it's not you to tell someone else what they have to believe, or they're not going to see the face of God, or they're living the wrong life. Because I think spiritual pain is real.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it hurts people in a way that is sometimes unrecoverable. Yeah, and I have a lot of compassion for that and I think I get very angry with that. I do feel like those people will have a talking to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I don't need that. I don't need the vengeance either.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't need the vengeful God.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't need a vengeful God, I do like justice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I do like when truth is illuminated and sorted out and things happen, when things can be corrected in a way. Yeah, I don't want God to be like oh.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I do feel like that's why I like that purgatory thing with Catholics. I don't think you sit down there and get fire on your toes, but I think that it's like did you ever see Defending your Life with Albert Brooks?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:It's a great movie. I think you'd love it. It's this idea of he dies and then he goes to this place where it's like he has to sit and watch the video of all the things he did that were good and things that were bad, and he has to sort of it's like the ultimate immersion in, like therapy. Yeah, he has to come to a place of almost reconciling with himself and it's fascinating. So I do feel like there's that. You know, people do that towards the end of their life sometimes, and then I think sometimes people do that after.
Speaker 1:I think we're.
Speaker 3:I think there's our time Rip.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this has been wonderful. It's been amazing, this has been so fun.
Speaker 3:I enjoy talking to you. I hope I get to see you again.
Speaker 1:Yeah same. Okay well.
Speaker 2:Well, here we are, on the other side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was Peggy Kelly, and I was not let down by her sort of graciousness and her wisdom.
Speaker 2:Yes, that was a very thoughtful deep. But most of your conversations with people are super deep, but this one seemed particularly special and you had a. Really I've got to say I've got to toot my own horn here. Conversations with people are super deep, but this one seemed particularly special because, um, and you had a. Really I gotta say I gotta toot my own horn here. I'm gonna toot your horn for you because I found you'd be very respectful of her trying to like dig at you like you know, with the, you know, but do you want to believe in god and this and that? But you were always very respectful, like it's just not for me. But I think both of you had a really beautiful common ground to discuss her life and her experiences and what a well-crafted person she is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I was. I mean I've definitely in my early 20s. I was not as gracious towards people who believed.
Speaker 2:Yes, neither was I.
Speaker 1:This was a path, but I've seen the way religion has helped people and I've seen the way spirituality has helped people go through some very hard things. I'm approaching 50 now. I'm finally at the stage where I can understand that there is different people need different things.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and you know, like anything else, it's a tool. You know like a tool can be used for harm and tool can be used for good. And it felt like one note I wrote when I was listening to it. It felt like being this deeply convicted, convinced of a beloved God like you talked of, like it's like a nice fur coat of assurance that you have if that's your bag and God bless you, Good for you, Good for you, but for some people that's just that yeah.
Speaker 1:I definitely felt that in her, I think she gets a lot of freedom, she gets a lot of just. She's calm, she's able to be in all these very hard situations and it doesn't break her because of her faith and obviously not having. You know, I've I've met people. I met actually several people who have had the experience of having her guide them through hard situations, and every one of them has said the same thing that it was no matter what they believed themselves. She always met them where they were and she was always able to give them little nuggets of wisdom on how to move on, how to deal with things without patronizing people, which I think is that's tricky.
Speaker 1:That's tricky. Yeah, when you're meeting someone in that kind of state, it's very easy to go into things, say, things that you've heard repeated over and over again that actually are not what anyone wants to hear.
Speaker 2:No, and it takes me straight to anger, Like part of God's plan, If you say that I would have rocket launched off this planet with no help except my own anger. I mean it's yeah.
Speaker 2:So that has a lot of grace. She has a lot of grace about herself when she's not, and maybe that's why you and I maybe are not as hardcore in our path anymore, because we see it for what it is. There's a help there when it's not thumping you over the face like, well, if you're not gonna do this, you're not gonna go to heaven, because I don't need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to be a decent human being.
Speaker 2:And I like when you said I don't need the vengeance and she said no, I just like justice. And I'm like sure, we're at the. We're at the very odd place in life for that. But I thought you had a really, really good conversation about how she navigates that. When she was talking about the people who are super religious, who denied treatment, you know, and then they get mad, the fact that she's like well, god's in chemo, like, if you want to think about it, and I was kind of impressed that that's something, Because everything in America seems so litigious and people are afraid to say blunt stuff here and I celebrate this woman for that, for trying you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there were so many stories. The one that actually, as I re-listened to the conversation, that sort of broke me down a little bit, was when she was talking about she had a five-year-old who lost his mom and he was there. And him, you know obviously he's five there and him you know obviously he's five. I don't know how, how he's doing now. I hope he's okay, yeah, he's doing well yeah, the the statement of I guess she's all done with school that that really stuck with me yeah, that was, that was heavy.
Speaker 2:That was real, real heavy. And, like she said, is that something you and your mom discussed or anything? Or this five-year-old kid just came up with that. I mean, yeah, you grow up fast when you're growing up around. Whatever that kid went through and that was harrowing stuff, that's harrowing stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and for me, this was everything I hoped for, and more. I think she was just honest, she was gracious, she was full of wisdom. She's gone through a lot, she's seen a lot.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:She's not broken by it.
Speaker 2:No, which is extraordinary.
Speaker 1:I think she's actually maybe even healed by it, by seeing all these things and seeing people go through these things and then coming out of them, often in one piece or not, or in a different shape. But at least life is the way it is, and it's hard, it's hard yeah. I don't think we talk about death enough.
Speaker 2:Agreed, and I think it's so far removed from Western civilization, like death is so far removed. It's kind of like the bread making, remember. Now we're going back to sourdough. Maybe we need to go back to talk, because you know the breads that Americans used to eat. The ingredients list was like 9,000 things down to like that. It just has the two things, the three things, and everybody loves it and it's better for everybody and everybody's having an honest conversation about gluten and whatnot, but maybe with death as well, because I mean, even in Iceland we grew up I mean I grew up their house passed away until and I went over there to help her out and say hi, and before the he was taken away.
Speaker 2:You know cause it's like it's not far removed, like everybody, just put somebody, a whole person, in a home and there they are, and it's all far, and then you never see them dead and all of a sudden they're in the casket, like it's getting macabre people. But I think we're just. This is the episode. We're talking about that stuff, because I think we do need to talk about it more, you know. Yeah, I do too yeah it's going to happen to all of us, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just watched the new Donnie Boyle movie 28 years later, yeah, which deals with death a lot, and I don't want to spoil anything, but I, you know that, coupled with this interview, just made me realize we have to think about this a lot more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, remember death, memento mori yeah, so yeah, that's, and here we are doing that that's what I'm gonna keep doing and reminding myself that this is all finite and and be um grateful for the moments that you have with people, because they're not gonna last forever that's true, that's true, and I feel I mean maybe not not as a knock on anything, but maybe I feel like my being an atheist makes me actually really enjoy it, because I'm not counting on an afterlife.
Speaker 2:This is it Like it's right here. So I'm very focused on the now, as much as I can, and being present, and being present in my family's and friends' lives and understanding, because I've said for ages, and that was my motto life's now. This is not a dress rehearsal, it's not, it's just happening to us all right now.
Speaker 2:Life's not against you, it's not specifically for you either. So just keep on plowing on, you know, because, yeah, like you said so eloquently, like I don't need the promise of that, or like a vengeful God, it's fine.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to be right here trying to enjoy it right now, because that's all we got.
Speaker 2:That's all we got for now. But, like you know, and if there is.
Speaker 1:If there's more, then that will be a surprise. But the bonus round, like you said, yeah, the bonus round, that'll be great. I'd be amazing, yeah I'd take well thank you so much. It's always great to see you fabulous honey hope you have a great day and I'll see you soon, talk soon, bye thank you for listening to let's walk. This episode was produced by jihan sincerely and edited by gunnar hansson. Our theme song is by Otni Runar Klöversson.