Let's Walk (with Halli)
Go for a walk with Halli as he chats with creative people about their life and work.
Let's Walk (with Halli)
Matt Dillon : The Fox Not The Hedgehog
What makes a movie star? In this captivating conversation with Matt Dillon, we discover it's about far more than just having the right look or landing the big roles. Dillon takes us behind the curtain of his remarkable five-decade career that began when he was just 14 years old and continues to evolve today.
Starting with early breakthrough roles in classics like "The Outsiders" and "Rumble Fish," Dillon reveals how director Francis Ford Coppola shaped his understanding of filmmaking and character development. He offers fascinating insights into his approach to acting, emphasizing what he calls "character logic" over "plot logic" – the idea that characters' actions must remain true to who they are, even when irrational. "If you don't understand why someone is doing what they're doing," he explains, "then the whole make-believe shambles falls apart."
Beyond his celebrated acting career, Dillon opens up about his directorial work, his documentary on Cuban music, and his daily practice as a visual artist. He speaks candidly about resisting being labeled as merely a "sex symbol" and his determination to take creative risks throughout his career. Whether discussing the challenges of working with Lars von Trier on "The House That Jack Built" or reflecting on playing Charles Bukowski's alter ego in "Factotum," Dillon provides a masterclass in artistic integrity.
What emerges is a portrait of a true creative force – someone who at 60 years old believes he's "only skimmed the surface" of his artistic potential. For anyone interested in film, acting, or the pursuit of authentic creative expression, this conversation offers invaluable wisdom from one of cinema's most enduring talents.
Well, good morning.
Speaker 2:Good and bright morning to you, sir. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm pretty good. Pretty good, I'm pretty good. I'm getting into midlife. So my wife just hurt her back and is bedridden.
Speaker 2:Yes, aye-aye.
Speaker 1:Aye-aye, yes, but otherwise things are good. I have some kids coming over that I'm going to have to entertain in a little bit, but things are good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, okay. Yeah, I think I can relate to midlife. I think I have a sleep injury, my hip and knee hurt because of the way I sleep. So I had a massage this week and I said, I usually like a firm hand.
Speaker 2:And the poor lady she just went to town on me. I literally feel like I was in the ring with tyson. I have bruises all over from the, from the massage. It's a little crazy. So, yeah, things were. Things are not like they used to be, that that's for sure. But sleep injuries We've got sleep injuries now.
Speaker 1:Sleep injuries. Yeah, I went for a massage a few months ago. That was very unorthodox. He was massaging my nervous system, oh, and so he used his nails a lot and I was all bloody afterwards.
Speaker 2:No way.
Speaker 1:It was really intense, yeah.
Speaker 2:That sounds crazy. Where did this take place in the world?
Speaker 1:This happened in Iceland. Okay, I actually felt great. Afterwards I didn't notice until my wife told me actually yeah, it was all bloody. I haven't gone again. No, but it was still it was.
Speaker 2:Would you go again? I mean, does it sound like something you would?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know. Okay, it was interesting. Okay, it was an experience.
Speaker 2:Well, all righty.
Speaker 1:There's the cat.
Speaker 2:There's my cat, there's Doodles. He's here, he's down. He's no who you're talking to. He's a big fan of your guest today. You have a big one today.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're going to go talk to Matt Dillon, who is obviously an actor. He is also. He's directed. He's done a whole bunch of things, but most sort of famously he's an actor. He's received an Oscar nomination, some Golden Globe nominations, he's won Screen Actors Guild Award. He's been nominated, I think, even for a Grammy. He has a voice. That, I think, is, I mean, some people kind of have everything. Obviously he's very, very good looking. But he also has the voice to go with it which is very nice.
Speaker 1:And then talent on top of it, and so I'm very excited to meet him. He's been in some of my favorite movies, so, yeah, I'm just really excited for this one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the man is. I mean, did I talk to you about my theory that I don't think there's any new movie stars? I think there's no new movie stars, there's only celebrities, I know that's a horrible thing to say, but he's a movie star.
Speaker 2:Matt Dillon is a proper, proper movie star. I mean 40, 50 years career. And you know somebody who should have been a flash in the pan. You know the pretty boy, james Dean. Looking pretty boy turns out to be an incredible actor, like a powerhouse actor. You know real an actor's actor. Since he was a kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he started out really young. I mean, the first movie I saw with him was when I was a kid probably way too young I saw the Outsiders and it became. Oh, my God one of the defining movies of my sort of young adolescence. I think it was kind of for our generation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know I've got to re-watch that. I don't think I've seen it since then and yeah, apt time to take a look at that one again, man and then his filmography is just it's hard to know where to start or stop.
Speaker 1:He was in Drugstore Cowboy. He was in there's Something About Mary yeah, he was obviously. He was in Wild Things, yes, which was yeah, that was a steamy movie, yes.
Speaker 2:And then he's been in Asteroid City, mean he's, he's all over the place he's all over the place, still acting, still still working and directing and does documentaries and he's like a latin music aficionado, knows everything about. He like, uh, you know, he didn't he do a documentary about music yes, he made a documentary, uh, about, about latin music.
Speaker 1:That I haven't watched, okay, but I'm very much going to watch yeah, yeah, yeah and yeah, I'm just really excited to get to know him, but also because we've been, I've been chatting with him for a little bit and he he paints uh as well, and so I'm gonna go look at his paintings and yeah, he is just obviously a very curious guy, uh curious about life and trying new things, and so I think he's going to be a great guest.
Speaker 2:I love it. Let's not forget he was also in the Bad Girl music video with Madonna, where I remember him being very smoldering at the time as well. So yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I missed that one. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I have to add that to my list.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I can definitely see that.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I can definitely see that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Well, all right, I can't wait to hear you guys talk. I want to hear what he's been up to lately and what's going on with Matt Dillon and what's in his future. It's exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 2:See you on the other side. You know what?
Speaker 3:We can do it like that, right? Yeah, oh, that's pretty cool, huh? Look at that. It's like a. You know, it's like a corsage, it's a podcast. No.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a podcast, Very cool. Yeah, I was in San Francisco the other a few weeks ago and I went into a haberdashery and the guy first of all he was so unhappy because it was clear that everyone that came in there was just looking around, not really shopping. I bought one hat and he was so happy. He was telling me his family had been there since 1948 and it was all going downhill, and so I ended up buying four hats from him.
Speaker 3:Wow were they like 1940s?
Speaker 1:50s, all sorts of hats. You know at least two, if not three of them. It's just too much of a statement Like I can't put on a brim hat like that.
Speaker 3:It's sort of like driving around in a vintage car. It sort of draws attention.
Speaker 2:Certainly.
Speaker 3:I don't feel like I need to draw more attention to myself. I love the way they look and they're really fun. Well, the other thing that's interesting, as you mentioned, uh, like you were in a vintage shop, right, but vintage is such a different thing now. The kids now. Vintage for them is like 1988 or something. You know what I mean? I'm like oh, my god, I'm getting old because to me, well, vintage with sharkskin suits and all that stuff, and in my punk rock days I used to blend that stuff, and in my punk rock days I used to blend that stuff. You know, you were a punk, yeah, kind of Like leather, no, some.
Speaker 3:I actually had an original pair of Sex Shop Seditionary's vintage bondage pants. I wore them twice Outside One time. I wore them. Yeah, a couple times I wore other stuff and my dad looked at me and said, son, what are those pants? And I said they're bondage pads. And he just nodded his head and went back to watching golf. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's very funny, but uh, you know they were. It was more like a thing. I was like, wow, this is like the, the sex shop in london.
Speaker 3:That was like a big deal why don't we go around the corner and there's a cafe over on 83rd Street. Let's sit. Yeah, have a strong coffee. That sounds good.
Speaker 1:How long have you been doing this? Well, I did it. So I'm from Iceland, yeah, and I did this in Icelandic. I've had a few careers and I'm kind of in between things. And I'm kind of in between things. I don't know what to do next with my life.
Speaker 1:One thing that I have noticed in everything I've done is I like creative people. I've jumped around and done things in different areas, but it's always been with creative people, right. So in Iceland, I started this thing where I was like, and I also just got this new wheelchair, which makes me a lot more mobile so I thought, well, I'll just talk to creative people in Iceland in Icelandic, and that was really fun. But then it's it's a small country, yeah, I ran out of people. So, yeah, I just thought, well, there's more people that speak English. So that's what I'm doing. I'm talking to a bunch of people in creative fields, people who I really like, people like when Tanya told me you were painting. That is something love. I love when people have a thing that they are best known for and then they are experimenting outside of that.
Speaker 3:Or whatever you call it.
Speaker 1:Because I know I had some success in my business and then if you start something else, it's judged at a different level Interesting, because that's certainly the case in the United States.
Speaker 3:We have a tendency especially in recent years, I find which is an unfortunate one to label people, and I think there was a famous quote from Kierkegaard.
Speaker 2:And believe me.
Speaker 3:I am no expert on philosophy, but he said something to the effect of when you label me, you negate me, and I think that's uh, there's something to be said for that. And I guess labeling I think it was something that several years and not that long ago, labeling was like we were Labeling, we were everybody's against labeling, but now it seems like, wait, you know, actually people don't feel safe unless everybody's got a label. Yeah, and, and I think it's a little unfortunate, but it's just one of those, uh, pendulum things, I think you know like it's just and it's also you know that what is the interpretation of that? There was a thing I just did because I have been painting quite a bit. There's a famous, a really good free newspaper for the arts here in New York called the Brooklyn Rail, and I did an extensive interview with the owner of the newspaper, who's a brilliant guy who you would love to talk to. His name is Phong Bui and he's Vietnamese-American. He was a boat refugee and he started this free newspaper and it's really a wonderful thing. And one of the things, just to get back on point, was he shared with me I think it was a story from some guy who was either a philosopher or a writer.
Speaker 3:He said that there are two types of people in the world. You know, in the arts especially, there's fox and there's Hedgehogs, okay, and that the Fox is someone who does many things and the Hedgehog is an individual who does one thing really well but only really focuses on one thing. Now, I'm sure there's a spectrum and all that you know. I'm sure there's some people that are a little bit of a, a hedgehog fox. What do you think? I think you're probably a fox. No, I think so. Yeah, out of those, if you had to say yeah.
Speaker 3:You're more labeling it. I'm a fox, you're a fox, he's a hedgehog. He's a hedgehog, right If?
Speaker 1:it is one of those things that is closer to a fox. I think I'm decent at a lot of things, but then I love working with people that are amazing at whatever it is they're doing. What I was good at in my career was finding those people, identifying them and saying, yeah, this person is very good at this thing, and that's, I think, maybe a taste like just a refinement of taste, and that's very different than me, I always seem to find.
Speaker 3:I always seem to find the sort of broken cans you know when you're in the supermarket and there's an aisle and they have. They have the dented cans.
Speaker 2:Not broken, but they're dented right.
Speaker 3:So they give them to you for cheaper. But it's not that. It's just that I always Are those the people you're drawn to. I don't know, I mean no, I'm not. I'm drawn to incredibly passionate and creative people. I think the key for me is authenticity and heart. You got to have heart. If somebody doesn't have heart, I'm not interested in being around somebody like that. It's not even up to me. I just don't want, I just reject people that have, you know, have that soul, the heart, you know. Yeah, this rain it's New York weather and springtime can be fairly unpredictable.
Speaker 1:I like the rain, it's uh.
Speaker 3:Well, you're from Iceland, so of course you're used to all kinds of inclement weather.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, but I think also just there's something unique about the rain. I mean, if it's not cold, I don't like cold rain.
Speaker 3:I don't like it. When, you know, we get here in New York in the wintertime Okay, when it's cold in Western Europe, or probably Eastern Europe, for that matter it's like it's gray and it's cold. But in New York, sometimes, when I look at the day, when I look outside and it's really sunny, I'm like, uh-oh, really bring an extra, because sometimes when it's really sunny, it's really cold. Okay, let's do this. You go here a lot. Yeah, this is like. This is my haunt. Hello, martina ciao. So we're gonna sit out here have coffee, maybe a little bite.
Speaker 3:Is this okay for?
Speaker 1:you.
Speaker 3:This is great Sit here Over there I work with Stellan Skarsgård. You know the actor he's got his sons are all actors. All of them are giants. They're all really great looking people and they're all great Stellan is the original.
Speaker 3:Stellan is the original, he's the bro and I took him to Cambodia. I mean, he made a movie there and like came out in 2003. And he was unbelievable. He was so great, he was so brilliant. You know, he just had the best ideas. But one thing he did say to me, that was what he felt like he would always ask me because he was game, I was directing it, I was also acting in it and I had a good cast and I had also. I had a great cast, but half of the cast were non-actors. They'd never acted before in Cambodia, working with actors from the region there.
Speaker 3:But Stellan said he would always say the only thing he was concerned about were the eyes. Like, can you see my eyes? He would say to me yes, we can see them, even if it was a wider shot. It just is important for him. And you know he had this theory that it's probably the thing in the arts. You know photography has composition, you know other things and painting has lots of things, but the thing that cinema has, the greatest thing that it has, is the eyes. You know to be able to see the eyes. I can accept that. I don't know that I'm as all-in as he is on that, because you know you're able to see the eyes. I can accept that. I don't know that I'm as all in as he is on that because I mean he really is, but I think it was valid. I always remember it, you know, I always remember it.
Speaker 1:The plan was to go to your apartment and see some of your art. Yeah, obviously that didn't work out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no worries, I can send you images too.
Speaker 1:I was. Can you send your images to I?
Speaker 3:I was just outside google just to get a frame of reference, because I didn't want to see them before I came. I went on instagram and I started a art. Only, yeah, a friend of mine suggested it. You know you give your own account and you use, you know it's. It covers your endeavors in cinema or in whatever you're doing in that way, and also some humanitarian stuff. I mean, I did some stuff with refugees, a lot, and also personal stuff that people get interested in that. You know it's something that I kind of accepted and I really quite enjoy it. You know, so I did this thing, so it's better. Google might be one thing I don't. I haven't ever googled. Okay, I try not to google myself, but you know I started that so you can look on that yeah, I'll check that out.
Speaker 1:But what? What kind of art is it? Do you define it?
Speaker 3:You know, I'd say that I like things that are pictorial but expressive. Sometimes I'll move into abstraction. That's pretty abstract. I mean I would never say I've done stuff that was pure abstraction. I think other people might think it was pure abstraction, but it usually starts out as something and I really believe in spontaneity and improvisation and taking the journey, you know, and so I think that my sometimes my mistakes are better than my ideas. It's really. That's really the joy of the directness that you get from creating visual art like painting etc. When you're working as an actor, for example, you're part of an ensemble. It's very collaborative and you're helping a director with their vision and you're doing an interpretation. It's very important. I mean, it's really important. Maybe it's the most important thing the characters in film More important than the plot. So I mean it's a conversation I have with.
Speaker 1:So it goes eyes, characters, plot For me characters.
Speaker 3:Before eyes Certainly before plot, and the eyes are, you know, that's part of it. That gives you a little window, but it's an important thing. I mean, cinematically it's certainly important because it's what cinema has. Television, I guess, does too. Television tends to favor close-ups, Cinema would go a little more wide. But I'd say character. And you know, like there's a thing I have a screenwriting friend that I speak to all the time about this and he's great. I'll often give him a script that I'm working on or an idea that I'm talking about, and he's so articulate, he always makes really interesting suggestions and one of the things we talk about is logic of character versus logic of plot. You know, One of them better be working or you're in trouble, right? I mean, ideally it would be good if they're both working.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But it's like, for example. But I think you can feel it more when you miss the logic of the character. Because if the logic of the plot goes away, that's one thing. If you don't understand why someone is doing what they're doing, then the whole make-believe shambles falls apart.
Speaker 3:Right, and I think at that point the viewer feels betrayed often, or the reader Sometimes. I feel that way when I read something and there's something that's so expository. You know, this character just betrayed the guy and he divulges all this stuff that he would never trust that individual Things like that. If that was a feature of who the person was, then it would be fine. And I think when we're talking about logic we have to distinguish between logic, something that's logical or illogical. Irrational Logic is not about it can be totally irrational, but it's logical. Right, that's the point. It can be irrational, but it's logical to who the person is. So it's like when you go on google or you open, I would say, when you open the paper but nobody opens newspapers anymore but when you read something and you find yourself saying why in hell would that person do that?
Speaker 3:Well, if you dig a little bit deeper, you're going to know perfectly well why that person did it. And it can be a completely irrational thing and that falls under a kind of character logic. It doesn't have to be like two plus two equals four. So I tend to favor that. I think character is the most important thing in film and television. So back to my friend who teaches screenwriting at NYU. He said all the students want to know, especially when they're developing televisions, when do we start writing the script, the story, the plot? They want to know about the plot, the story. And he tells them to just focus on the character and that if you're going to do something, especially in television, where it's going to be 10, 15 hours, 12, 20 hours, with something he says, you have to create characters that you would want to watch in 10 movies. Right, you know, and that's good. I like that. It's a very strong position on that. You have to really create strong characters. So he tells them keep writing the backstory. And I think that's good, because at a certain point and I've experienced that when you're writing, the characters begin to dictate, they tell you what they want to do.
Speaker 3:You know, do you like to write? Yeah, I do? I do, but I'm not a. I'm writing for the screen and I don't. Okay, you know, I'll write for myself, sometimes, like journaling or something, but usually I'm writing for something else and it's creating stories, characters. You know I enjoy that. I don't do it nearly enough.
Speaker 3:But how do you feel your day? Well, you know, I really like when I'm working, because when I'm working, I, you know, I have a routine. I like a routine. I think it's really good for me. You know. So when I'm working, I'm the happiest, generally speaking, and I find time to do so.
Speaker 3:When I'm working, I'm the happiest, generally speaking, and I find time to do things that I can't seem to find time to do when I have free time. It's interesting, it's a paradox. So filling my day is a lot harder when I'm not working, which is nice, which is when you have another discipline or another thing that you're doing. I never would call it a hobby. I hate the word and it certainly doesn't apply to what I'm doing as an artist. It's very real for me in that way, but it's nice to have that so I can retreat to the studio. I always have something to be doing and I'm curious, I'm not that disciplined always. So I have to kind of do my best to keep a schedule, because that helps to be accountable for something, because I'm not like that disciplined.
Speaker 1:I work on projects. Now I don't have a full-time job anymore, but I'll just work on the thing that I enjoy and then I'll work on another thing that I'm doing, and the hard thing about it is I feel like every day I'm inventing a day. And, to your point, earlier I used to have my own business and I would go. I would show up every day at 8 am and I would leave at 8 pm or something. That was a full day. There was nothing else to do. Now I wake up and I have to go and think about what do I want to get out of this day? What's the best use of my time? All of those questions that I don't want to keep having to answer, which is annoying. So I'm trying to get back into a groove where I just have a schedule of the things that I do every day and it works like this. But it doesn't seem to be also what I want to do, because as soon as I find it, I struggle against it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's one of the harder things about having free time is like directing what direction you're going to go in, because if you fill your calendar with too much stuff, you overbook and next thing you know you're like, oh my God, this isn't what I want to be doing at all. I don't want to be having lunch with that person. I don't want to have to go to that thing, I don't want to do that. It's good to have some structure, right. What do you enjoy doing?
Speaker 3:I like to be creative, you know, and what I think I like enjoying doing sometimes, because that can be a bit of an illusion or a distraction, but I love music, so I listen to a lot of music. I play congas drums. I like to play congas, afro-cuban music, which is an interest of mine. I made a documentary about Cuban music and I created such a deep forest for myself making the documentary, because I have this abundance of curiosity and interest and a love and passion of that music that I would find out that, oh, so-and-so is still alive, so-and-so's living in Havana or in Mexico, and they're available. I have to interview them, Right. And so I created this so much material that I had in the end.
Speaker 3:So it was better as a result of it, because I spoke to so many people and you kind of become a de facto expert in a way. I mean not really, but kind of a de facto expert on a certain subject, because you interview all the experts, right. So it's obviously not a complete. You know you're not getting everything from them, but you know you can, and so there's a lot of things that that didn't end up in my documentary, that are really that really belong in an archive, because maybe some of those people passed on and what they left, maybe nobody else knew, that nobody else come. You become, you have sort of a responsibility in a way. You become a.
Speaker 3:It's an archivist. Maybe an extended version, yeah, but it would have to be really extended then. But it's true that there is maybe multiple movies in it, but unfortunately people are not that interested. It's sad because it's the best music in the world, afro-cuban music, that island, for some reason, and that culture produced some of the best music ever, coming from Africa, the United States and Europe, europe, and somehow it came all came together there and and the history is amazing and I think people would be interested if they, if they knew and the people that are exposed to it absolutely love it, so they'd rather see documentaries about, you know, boy bands or pop singers or stuff that I'm not interested in.
Speaker 1:As a kid. I'm born in 1977. As I was thinking about meeting you for this interview, one of the things that I just the first thing that popped to mind was the Outsiders, because that movie I got that came out when I was six and I would watch it probably. I probably saw it when I was nine or ten and, even though none of the things related to me, I felt like it was talking to me. I was thinking about this. It's been a long time since I've seen it, but I was thinking about this the other day and I think it was that everyone recognizes just this idea of being an outsider and the kids in the movie feel real and their bond feels real and even though they do really stupid things. Going back to what you were saying before, there's an internal logic to it, at least in my memory. Like everyone, everyone made the wrong decision, basically, but you understood why they made them especially.
Speaker 3:I remember watching that movie over and over again, just wanting to have a group of friends like that, like a group of friends that, even though you were making the stupidest decision in your life, they'll be like okay, well, I'll come along yeah, well, see, I think what you said earlier come back to that, like you identified with it, even though it had nothing to do with where you were from or your culture, and the reason that the book was made into a film in 1981 or 82, I don't remember when we made it, I had just turned 18. When I made it, just turned 18. I was a kid, but I had read the book a few years earlier. Of course, when you're that age, it all seems like two years, seems like 20 years. It's still popular. The book is still popular. They still read it in schools. You read it? Or did you just watch the film? I popular. They still read it in schools. You read it? Or did you just watch the film? I saw the movie. I haven't read it, but I think it's been. They read it in in other countries and translated in many languages, and so it's a popular book and then it's a popular film. So it comes around and it still has this staying power.
Speaker 3:I think it's because when young people read that book, they're at an age when they're first beginning to discover independence. I mean, in the book it's more extreme. There are no young people have no supervision at all right, there's no parents, but the young people reading the book. They might have parents, but they're beginning to manage for themselves and I think it hits home. Like I would go back to my junior high school and talk to kids that are reading the book.
Speaker 3:A question would come up about my character or one of the characters in the story. If they didn't agree with me, you could see it in their eyes. You know they were like because they were forming their own distinctive opinions about who those people were. That's a powerful thing, you know. It reached me. So I read the book when I was 13 years old and then I ended up acting in the film and I remember at the end of it I was weeping, I cried, and I think it has that effect on young people. And here's the irony of the whole thing it's written by a 16-year-old girl. She might not like that I say this, but she was a 16-year-old nerd who wrote the book. She wasn't like the cool girl in class or something. There's no girls in it. No girls, oh, there's one, yeah.
Speaker 1:Diane Lane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, diane Lane. Diane Lane, Pretty good one, yes, gorgeous.
Speaker 1:Again. I can't remember all of it, but the cast also was. It was just like it set the tone for the 80s.
Speaker 3:Well, francis was a god really. Yeah, to us, to actors, to young actors, he was a big deal. To be cast in a film with Francis was a big deal. You know, really everybody kind of knew that it would change us. You know that he had that kind of power and magic Did you feel it as you were making it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you kind of knew it. And then, right afterwards, like during the making of the film, francis came to me and said hey, this other book, rumblefish, which I had read and I actually liked it even more than the Outsiders. He said I love this book and I want to do the film. And we did that, we did that. Right afterwards he said I'd like you to do it. I said, well, say the word.
Speaker 3:And it was a much different experience. There were some of the same actors from the Outsiders that ended up in Rumblefish, but Rumblefish was black and white and you know, it was done literally a month, two months after we made the Outsiders. We went right into it pretty much. And now they added in there Dennis Hopper and, of course, mickey Rourke. It was unbelievable, amazing. He had so much charisma and at that time he had just been in a few movies. He just jumped off much charisma and at that time he had just been in a few movies, he just jumped off the screen, and so that was an interesting group. Lawrence Fishburne came in. Tom Waits Well, he was in both of them. Tom Waits had small parts in each film. That was also an experience where we felt like we were doing something, you know, new and unique.
Speaker 3:Special Francis recently said that he thinks that he loves all of his movies but if he had to pick one it would be Rumblefish. Personally, and it might have been because of the aspect the two brothers that it felt very germane to he and his own brother. I can't help but think that was part of it, even though the Outsiders had brothers as well. Yeah, I mean one was like an epic like Gone with the Wind or like some really big Technicolor epic. I mean one was like an epic like Gone with the Wind or like some really big technical or epic. And the other one was more like a like Carol Reed noir film. You know black and white.
Speaker 2:And it had more of that kind of vibe.
Speaker 3:They were very different. It was almost. They looked as different as they felt, making them Were you conscious of career choices at that age?
Speaker 1:Were you thinking about okay, I'm building towards a career and I want to have a diverse portfolio of movies, or was it? I'll just take this. This is interesting.
Speaker 3:You know it's a good point you're asking about, like career choices. I was sort of developing into somebody that would make those choices, I think, earlier. Unfortunately, from the very beginning I was surrounded by people with principles and good taste or what have you. So for the most part, look, there's things that you do when you're younger and you kind of regret that you did it or something, and sometimes it's harder for me to watch the earlier films because I am learning on the job, so I'm very judgmental and then I always have to remind myself easy does it? You were a kid. You know, I started.
Speaker 3:My first film I did was called Over the Edge and it came out. We did it in 78. 78. You were one years old, I was 14. I was a kid.
Speaker 3:It had the soundtrack. It was great. It had cheap trick, you know. Remember mommy's All Right, daddy's All Right that was the theme While we were making it. It was the theme of the movie and it was Kurt Cobain's favorite film and it's in the documentary. Right, they blew him away when he saw that film Because, again, it had that power.
Speaker 3:You know, when I read the script, I was a 14-year-old, I wasn't an actor, and that guy who I was gonna play. I recognized him. He was like me and he was like my friends, and if I had been asked to come in and audition for a movie that was about, you know, a family living in the wilderness, I probably would have not even been interested. It probably would have never happened. Who called you in?
Speaker 3:I was like in junior high school and there was a group of assistant casting directors who were working for this film the casting director of this film Over the Edge and his name was Vic Ramos. He became my manager. Jonathan Kaplan was the director and they saw me and I fit a type they were looking for, I guess. So there were I don't know seven or eight kids that were in my junior high school, which is in Westchester, about 10 minutes north of the Bronx, and they went around looking because the decision they made was that we want to get real kids, we don't want to cast bad news bears or professional actors, you know. So that's how I got cast in it, and it was an interesting thing because I just did this film where I was playing the alter ego. I was playing not the alter. I was playing Marlon Brando when he made Last Tango in Paris with Maria Schneider and it's a biopic about Maria Schneider, of course when they came to me to play Brando.
Speaker 3:Maria is the actress in Maria Schneider was the female, the actress In Last Tango Of Last Tango. In Last Tango, Paris, who had a horrible experience. Enjoy that. Yeah, she had a traumatic experience making it and she also had a very damaged life.
Speaker 1:And you played Brando in that story. I played Brando.
Speaker 3:But it's funny because Brando had been with me since my early acting experience. So the director of the first film I made, brando, of course, is the most important actor for so many actors, but for me, but for so many other actors, brando is it. Brando changed the game more than once. He changed it. He was a genius and a fascinating figure. But when I was a young actor, I had no idea who he was. I was like 14 years old and the director of the film. He loved us, but he would call us like all right, you little cocksuckers, that's how he would direct us. Okay, he would direct me, and then I would want to do things for real. So if I had to come into the room and knock something over, I wanted to really knock it over. You know, I really wanted to get, I was really game, I really wanted to do it. I wanted it to be real and so I'd be like all right.
Speaker 3:Marlon. Enough of that, you know. So he'd always call me Marlon. You know I had no idea who that was. I mean, I knew of Marlon Brando, but from the Godfather, you know, and the Godfather was something that I caught on television.
Speaker 3:I was too young and I knew, when I did the first film, first thing I would do, right away from the very beginning I knew that I would be an actor. There was no question. There was nothing else I was going to do. I don't know, it was like I didn't even think about it. It was my career, it was my path. You know you're not thinking that much about the future at that age, but it never. Of course.
Speaker 3:First thing I did was to study the films of Marlon Brando, james Dean, montgomery, clift, to look at that early work method, acting. And I studied and within a year I was studying at the Young People's Program, lee Strasberg Institute, studying the method, and I watched all the early films. I watched all the films of Brando and I got right up to the last tango. I think I first saw it when I was about 17. That's where, you know, brando had such an impact.
Speaker 3:That movie and that movie that was different than what he what he was doing was. He was always there, was always the interior life, and I think that's what what brando and dean and montgomery cliff, they were doing was. They were being vulnerable in a way that actors before that, before brando, there were some, I mean, you know, I know, I think you could Spencer Tracy or Paul Muni, or there were really great actors, john Garfield, certainly, that had this eternal life. Brando did that and then that changed it for everybody. So to play Brando, aside from the fact that he's a distinctive, has a distinctive style, but also he revealed so much of himself in that film, but in general there was always this vulnerability. I think he changed the perception of the American man in many ways. It wasn't John Wayne, right, it was different. Yeah, you know that. So that's how I started, you know, on my journey, and has it ever been?
Speaker 1:have you ever thought this is it, I'm done.
Speaker 3:I hate this thing you know, I like acting a lot Feels like it's a natural thing for me to do. I'm very comfortable with it. However, because it's a performance and like it was sort of what you were saying every day you have to kind of reinvent, you have to figure out what you're gonna do and every day when you're working as an actor, you're gonna have to do something different. When I worked with Lars von Trier on the house that Jack built, finally, after 10 days I was playing a serial killer. After 10 days in the walk-in freezer, I was like getting like I needed to like reset. So we had dinner, lars and I, and there was a scene that we had done that day or the day before, and it was so difficult because it was written in such a way that was so, so much dialogue. It was so over the top in many ways, but with Lars, I trusted him, I did, he asked that of me and I fully trusted him and there was no reason not to Everything.
Speaker 3:Every actor, actors in spite of the fact that they have to do sometimes humiliating, difficult, degrading things, they always shine. He takes care of them. So he said to me you know, I understand why you're having difficulty with the scene. There's a scene that, like I said, it was very difficult. He said cause it wasn't very well written. Of course he wrote it. And then he said but I also know why you really enjoyed doing the scene that we shot two weeks earlier. There was a scene where he reveals his OCD thing. It was a fun sequence which was really well written. It's a murder scene, as many scenes are in the movie. But he said I know why you enjoyed it because it was really well written.
Speaker 3:So the point he was making and no director I heard ever articulate or admit that is like you didn't enjoy doing it because it wasn't well written and you enjoyed doing that one because it was well written. And then he said but they'll both be equally good in the film. Well, he can say that because he really is brilliant, right?
Speaker 1:Brilliant filmmaker Did you agree when you saw the end result? Yep, yes, I did.
Speaker 3:And because he's a guy who has a lot of success in the scenes that he does, because he won't walk away, he won't compromise, he's not going to walk away until he has what he wants and he's paying attention. And he was right. Yeah, I like the experience. I mean I shouldn't have told him that because I was afraid he'd change it when I finally he said you have to watch the film with me and I said, oh no, I don't want to watch the film because it's such a brutal film. Yeah, but I enjoyed making it and I enjoyed the discovery and the creativity that we had making it and I finally was able it. I turned to him and said I really like it. He said you do. And then I'm like, oh fuck, now he's gonna change it. Now he's gonna change it, you know because I like it.
Speaker 3:You know he didn't, of course, I don't think he did. I think he changed a few things, but not much. Not because of that, but I was afraid he would.
Speaker 1:But, um, because you know he wants to provoke and he does, he does provoke in that case, the trust you gave to him was rewarded, yeah, but I'm assuming that there's a lot of cases where it wasn't, where you, you know, you put yourself into something and you're not there in the editing room, you're not like, you don't see the full vision. You kind of just have to trust that the director is, has a plan to put this all together and you're just a cog. You know, maybe an important cog, but still a cog in their machine, right, do you? Not to mention specific ones, but do you remember coming to a movie, seeing and being having the opposite experience of just like, oh man, they really fucked this one up.
Speaker 3:Well, often the director you can tell they're less interested in the people. They're kind of hiding behind the camera. They're not interested in the characters. It's interesting with Lars because you know the house that Jack built and other films of his you might even you know you could even say they're somewhat misanthropic in tone, but he doesn't look at the characters in that way. He's really interested in them More than any. As brilliant as he is with his technical stuff he really is he doesn't give a shit about it. It's a real paradox.
Speaker 3:Some other directors are obsessed with everything being perfect and he's like let's fuck it up, you know, let's make mistakes, not deliberately, but let's open it up to potential for failure or not. And that's a really important part of creativity. We do it. I do it when I'm painting all the time, drawing whatever. But then the part of me that's the actor, often has this real sense of personal responsibility. So I want to get it right. Working with in some cases it's great when you're given permission to fail to try something new to absolutely who cares? Who cares if you don't do it perfectly? It's not the point. The point is to tap into something real, to really get something profound. That's where the magic is, you know, and you're only going to get there by taking risks, and so you're okay.
Speaker 1:I mean you have to trust. But first of all you feel like you know, on the set, this one is gonna be a doozy Doozy.
Speaker 3:A doozy, oh well, yeah, I mean, sometimes there are. You have to trust that, like I've done things where I've looked at the script and I've gone, oh, this doesn't make any sense at all, I really don't like this. And then you have to lean into it because you can't play a character and judge the character simultaneously. So sometimes it's about like you like it Because you don't like it, you commit to it more in a way. I don't know if that makes sense, but you almost have to.
Speaker 1:Does that sometimes change? Like, have you had going into it thinking this is horrible, I'm going to commit all the way? Then you show up, you see it and again, it wasn't horrible.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, you know it always feels good when you're something that you're afraid of, and then you follow the fear and you follow the fear, and you follow the fear and you don't know how it's gonna work. I did a film with a great Norwegian director, bent Hammer, called Factotum, where I played Charles Bukowski's alter ego, which was a lot of fun, but there was a scene where I had to be. My character gets crabs and then ends up with a rash because of the treatment, the ointment he puts on his genitals, and then his girlfriend, his crazy girlfriend, wraps him up with gauze like a giant diaper and this sequence was like this is either going to be humiliating or it could really be good, and I was really happy that. I felt pleased with the final result of what it was. We screened that. I brought that the only time I came to Iceland. We screened it Factotum.
Speaker 3:I went there with Jim Stark, who was a producer on the film, who lives in Iceland and produced Icelandic films. I don't think he lives there anymore, but Jim Stark, he produced a couple. I think he produced a couple of Icelandic films. I know the name, yeah, and then I were, and then I got to be friendly with the guy named Dagor Dagor. You know who did Anovi the albino. Yeah, I met him in Iceland and then we got to hang out more and he was working in Copenhagen when I was shooting the House of Jackbuilt. We hung out there. He was teaching at the film school.
Speaker 1:One thing I was thinking about as well was like as you were growing up your career. You know you played the rebel a lot. You played people that were underdogs a fair amount. You played people that were. Usually people would follow you in the movies, so you would be in a lot of the movies. At least that I remember is you being kind of the hero or the anti-hero of the movie and then at some point it seems to have clicked for you that you could play. You know you were always the cool guy, if I remember Not always.
Speaker 1:At some point though, in your career it flipped where you realized, hey, it's kind of funny that I play the same level of confidence in the same body and same face. That has brought me these leading man roles and.
Speaker 2:I play that as an idiot.
Speaker 1:I play that as someone that doesn't have the capabilities to back up their confidence.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's interesting. You know every character's different, you know, and it's always nice to step outside of your. I always like to be able to do something I haven't done before, but unfortunately sometimes it's not easy because you know they used to go against type. It was a really great thing. You heard it more People talked about going against type. Yeah, casting against type, it's really great when you get the opportunity to do that play somebody different than you usually play. But, like, I like doing comedy, but I don't do a lot of it because I'm not really it's. You're not under pressure to be funny when you're not a comedic actor, when you're not considered a comedic actor. But I think people like Bill Murray are sort of expected to be funny, you know, or Steve Martin, no matter what they're doing. It's sort of expected of them.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'm getting at is you were the early movies that I remember. Were you being Brando, like you were? You were being, you were brooding, you had these sort of big moments and you were like a handsome leading man, 80s type. And then I what?
Speaker 3:are you doing? You think I don't have it anymore, man.
Speaker 1:I know what you mean. But then it felt like you realized that's also quite funny when you put that character into a role, into a comedy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, to tell you the truth, when I was younger, I hated being labeled a sex symbol. I hated that. I mean, I know that sounds, maybe that even sounds arrogant, but I didn't like it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't like to be thought of in that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it takes away from what you're doing and it just paints you as a sort of one-note type of person. It's like, oh, he's handsome, that's why he got the role. But what I liked about once you I don't know if you thought about it this way at all, but there's many roles where I see you again going against type, where you're not playing to being a sex symbol. Your takeaway for the audience is like this guy's an idiot. I guess what I'm saying is I think you play a very good idiot. Huh, I think you play a very good idiot.
Speaker 1:Well they don't think they're idiots, no, the characters. But because you have the confidence to follow through with it, and so that's why I think it's funny. You can see that this person is confident in what they're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, I'm not afraid to do that, absolutely not. I'm not afraid to do that To do something that's not. You know, I don't have to look good, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're okay being in a diaper with crab cream.
Speaker 3:You should see that one I don't think you've seen. You're talking about the Outsiders and I've got to tell you, hallie, when people only talk about the Outsiders, I just feel like they haven't seen later. Work that I've done.
Speaker 1:Just the Outsiders, to me was just.
Speaker 3:Of course it had an impact on you.
Speaker 1:It was the time that it came out. That was amazing to me. But another one that has really stood out to me was Drugstore Cowboy, which I recently watched a few months ago before I knew we were talking. And that to me again was I remember seeing that movie because I was not a drug addict but I still connected with that person that you were playing.
Speaker 1:He was driven in a way that I wanted to be driven, even though he was driven to do the wrong things. And once I started later on drinking and using some drugs that's the other part of it clicked into me, the obsession of being constantly thinking about not only where you're getting next tricks, but even a few steps ahead. That really clicked for me. I was like, yes, this is now because, once I was in it, that's how I thought about my life, getting extra checks, but even like a few steps ahead. That really clicked for me of like, yes, this is now because, once I was in it, that's how I thought about my life is how am I going to have enough and how much is enough?
Speaker 3:well that one, uh, one of the things that was interesting about it was it wasn't like the kind of typical film you'd seen about drug addicts, which always depicted the horror, the harrowing part of it which is for real. That is real. There are consequences. In drugstore Cowboy people die, people get shot, people get arrested. Things happen right. So consequences are there. But there's also why do people do it? Because of the rush, the euphoria, all of that, and in this case the character, bob, was an adrenaline junkie.
Speaker 3:So when I read the script right away I said this is a great script. It was like nothing I'd ever read. But I was young, I was 26 when I did it and I was very into the idea of doing that. So when I got cast I was really into it and he and I Gus and I went up to Walla Walla Penitentiary, which is where James Fogel, who wrote the book Drugs and Cops, incarcerated in the prison there. And as soon as I saw him I said, oh no, this guy's so much older than me. How am I going to do this? I don't look anything like this guy. He's so much older, you know. But he had been locked up for 11 years. And then, in our course of our conversation he said to me oh no, the character of Bob is based not on me but on my partner, who was like 10 years younger than me and he robbed.
Speaker 3:I robbed 50 drugsters, he robbed 200 drugsters and he was really the ringleader, even though he was younger and he was wilder. Well, it didn't end well for any of those guys. Even he his name was Brian Ward ended up dying of a drug overdose. He became a fitness freak in prison. As soon as he got out, he fell into his old ways and then even Fogel wrote the book. There's a New York Times thing about him. It was only seven, eight years ago, maybe a little longer, where he'd been. He got arrested for robbing a drugstore and he was a senior citizen he was deep into his 70s, you know and he robbed a drugstore and they only got him on the one, but there had been a rash of pharmacies being robbed, you know. When he got out of jail he went back to his old ways.
Speaker 1:He was a totally incorrigible guy. Do you relate to that? Do you have habits like not that extreme, but things you know you shouldn't be doing?
Speaker 3:well, yeah, I can be a little bit like that, I can be a little compulsive some things, but I mean that's, it's good if you can sort of direct that into creative things, positive things. So I think there are some habits that are more brutal than others right Drugs and alcohol, et cetera. Even sex gambling. Those are not maybe as brutal. But then there's like hey, man, there are people that over-train, they go to the gym too much, they become obsessive about other things, and those are. You could argue that those are not healthy either.
Speaker 3:But they're better than the other ones.
Speaker 1:When I stopped drinking pretty much next week I saw a workaholic. I just worked instead of drinking. What do you have left to do?
Speaker 3:Oh, there's a lot of things I mean I want to continue. I like what I do overall. You know I directed a film. I mean I did do a documentary that I'm quite proud of, but I like it quite a bit about Cuban music, but that was really difficult, Took a long time to do, but I never directed. I directed a feature film came out in 2003,. Took me a long time to get it made, Really wonderful cast and it's a good film and I'm very happy with it overall. Of course I look at it and there's things I would do differently if I did it again and I always thought that I would continue to do that, and but then I went and did what I do as an actor and continued Life happens, you know, and so I want to do that again. I really did a great joy. I love doing it and I'm good at it. I have to say I believe I'm good.
Speaker 1:Okay, I believe in myself and I want to do it. And what is it about direction that you're good at? Are you good at what? I think it's just.
Speaker 3:I have a lot of experience and I'm good working with people. I like working with people. You're good with actors. I'm good with actors. I'm very visual too. You know I'm circuitous sometimes but I am a good storyteller. I believe that about myself and I like to do it. I like to tell stories. Would you direct yourself again? It depends, really depends.
Speaker 3:It was something that surprised me. I was afraid of it and I had to be in it. Well, I didn't. I guess I could have cast somebody else, but to get the money I needed and I had to be in it. Well, I guess I could have cast somebody else, but to get the money I needed to be in it, or I needed to get somebody. But you know, even when I suggested maybe I'll get somebody else and my writing partner, barry Gifford very good writer, always collaborated with David Lynch, did Wild at Heart, lost Highway, and he'd say what are you crazy? I was so worried about it because I thought, well, how am I going to do that? Because I had directed some TV and stuff and you're so focused on other things I couldn't even imagine what it would be to do it and I discovered it's actually something that I can do.
Speaker 3:I don't think I could do it with everything. I think certain jobs would be much more difficult for me to do than that one. For one thing, if it's really look I always say like if I look like I was, my character was under a great deal of stress that's because I was under a great deal of stress. You know a lot of pressure doing that, making you know shooting a movie, directing a film. So I think like some things could be harder, but I like directing in general. I like working with actors. I like the process. I like the collaborative feeling. I love the great sense of fulfillment that you get from it. It's nice to kind of write something and watch it come to life. That's a multi-year process? Yeah, it is. It takes a long time. Do you have the patience? You better choose something that really holds your interest. I mean I obviously have the patience. I did it once, yeah, so it's within me to do it.
Speaker 3:I learned in Asia, because I shot the film in Southeast Asia, that I really learned that I was capable of patience. Didn't think I was. I mean, obviously I have staying power, I am determined, so that I knew, but I didn't know that I was capable of patience and being here, I mean I could be stubborn, steadfast and determined, but patient I'm not so sure. In Southeast Asia you have no choice. If you want to get anything done, if you want to be successful in accomplishing things, you have to be patient. It's part of the culture. You can't blow your top, you can't lose patience there. It's not accepted in that culture and it's really good. It's a good thing to practice and I learned that I was capable of it, really capable of it, and that it served me to be patient. There's no point in doing it any other way. Why haven't you done it again? I direct it again. Have?
Speaker 1:you tempted. Why haven't you done it again? I directed again. Have you tempted? Yeah, I've written stuff.
Speaker 3:I've written stuff. I think, for one thing, I wrote and directed that film, I generated the thing. I mean, I had collaborators and stuff that I worked with, but when you're an actor, again it's that thing. Oh, he's an actor. Listen, when I was doing the film as a director, I didn't get help from the agents. I just didn't, not until the money was there. And then, of course, they helped me because they wanted to get their people in the movie. They wanted to get actors in it. So you know, I think I myself was like I just jumped back into what I had done always, which is to be an actor.
Speaker 3:I'd written a couple of screenplays but, if I may say, there was also everything that could happen on a movie happened to me on that movie. Not everything, but I mean the process of making the film, the film coming out, et cetera. It was more than I could have imagined. It was better than I thought it would be. I thought the film came out better than my. It exceeded my expectations in many ways. However, I didn't have an easy time. I had a very difficult producer, german I didn't have on a producerial level. I didn't have support. I did have support from MGM UA, united Artists. They were really actually quite supportive. But I had a producer in Germany and I'll just say it, he was not easy and he made it very difficult, and so that part of it was very and he was not easy and he made it very difficult and so that
Speaker 3:part of it was very and I'm not I mean it's years have gone by so I can speak and say that it was really a difficult, very difficult thing to go through. Somebody tried to take the movie from you and when that happens you know it really is a very difficult, traumatic thing. I mean, if your heart is in what you're doing and you're fully committed. And the thing was what surprised people that had seen the film, even in a rough cut, were like, wow, that doesn't happen with a movie that's in that good of shape. You wouldn't have somebody do that, but it does. It did happen and it happened to me, but I handled it well and it all worked out great. In the end the film is the film that I wanted to make in the editing room. The cut is 100% my cut.
Speaker 3:Of course you compromise little things here and there, but I'm not a fan of compromise and I say that you make choices that are pragmatic but compromise in like oh, I can't get that actor, so I'll get a lesser actor, or I can't get that location, so I'll get a letter, find a lesser location. That's what I mean. That's the compromise I don't want. If you can't get the thing that you want. Don't settle for anything less. That's for me. Don't settle for anything less Because you don't have to. Anything that you feel is less. You know as a filmmaker. So I'm going to do it again, and I know it's close, but I do.
Speaker 2:You have a there's a process for me because I write too.
Speaker 3:I'm also very much nobody's offering me scripts as a director. They never did right, so that's part of it. I didn't if I didn't generate it myself, and it took me a long time to get City of Ghosts Do you have a thing you're working on in that sense of a story that you want to pick.
Speaker 3:I have a few things that I'm working on, but I don't want to talk about it here. Yeah, Because it's one of those things you want to. If you're just putting it out there, you don't want to jinx it, there's no reason to talk about it until it's really allow it to come to life, you know, when you're ready to birth the thing. However, like you and I, in a creative sense, we could talk about it. I would say here's what I'm thinking about. Hallie, what do you think? Maybe you want to get involved. That's different, Sure.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's a very different thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because that's important too, because sometimes you give life to it. It's the same thing as when I remember while screening that film or even my documentary when you screen it, it tells you what you need to know. When there's just if it's just one person there for some reason, watching it over and over again, the film tells you what it wants to be and you have to screen it. And so sometimes talking about something with the right people and telling the story is important, and I think that's important. If that's your thing, storytelling keeps you.
Speaker 3:It's like, every day I do a drawing or a collage.
Speaker 1:I do that you do that every day. Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 3:Not every day, but when I was in Africa here I was making a movie we're shooting these long days I had a lot of preparation to play the character. I would find time. I had a lot of preparation to play the character. I would find time. You know, I had time, and when I had time, that's where I would put my energy, often not always Should we have that. I'm gonna have to pay the check, yeah.
Speaker 1:What else is left? What do you wanna like when you check out? What do you wanna make sure you've done? What do you mean when?
Speaker 3:you leave In life, yeah, ah well, I don't know. There's a lot. I mean to see the world. For sure, I like to travel. You know I always wanted to live in Paris, but everybody I know who lives in Paris doesn't want to live there anymore. You know, I mean I always felt like Paris. I always wanted to live in Paris at some point in my life. But really I mean I feel like I want to accomplish, do more at a higher level, which I have already done, so more of the same to direct again.
Speaker 3:To do a good work as an actor and to continue to develop the things. I don't really feel like there's something new I want to do. You know, right now, yeah, I mean, maybe go in to do sculpture, that might be something that I would want to do, so sort of which is just another branch, another creative branch that I'd like to explore. Yeah, there's not a lot of new things. I'm not like somebody that's like oh, I want to go paragliding, you know, or heli-skiing, or you know these kinds of things. It's not that I think there's anything wrong with them, it's just not appealing to me. But do you feel like?
Speaker 1:you know as directing another movie or more movies, acting more. You have a, you know, very broad, long career. Do you feel like it's just because you enjoy doing these things, or is it you feel like you have something left in you that you haven't shown?
Speaker 3:oh yeah, oh, I think it's infinite. You know, I mean to me I've only skimmed the surface of what I would like to do, or what I think I could do. But you know, piano, piano, take things slowly, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:And I take things what was that? Piano, piano.
Speaker 3:Piano, slowly, slowly, piano, piano, step by step, pianissimo. Yeah, sure, there's lots of things.
Speaker 1:What kind of characters have you played that you want to play?
Speaker 3:Well, I always like something where you get outside of yourself, like, for example, I never get off play, play an Englishman Right or an Irishman Right or an Icelandic Right. Okay, now, I mean, I'm not just to do things.
Speaker 1:How are you with accents?
Speaker 3:I'm very good, I have a very good ear, but I don't. I'm not going to just launch into one right now because I'm very professional about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm going to set myself up for that, but I have a very good ear, but unfortunately I've only been able to do sort of American regional accents, usually from the South or New York. Which New York? There's a whole variety of New York accents, you know. Yeah, the one I like the best is the one where they you can't hear the first they say so what the fuck is that guy doing? I mean, fuck is that guy doing? The fuck is that guy doing? There's no, what the yeah, the fuck is that guy doing something like that? So, holly, this is where we yeah, and this is the end of it.
Speaker 1:Right, this is the end of it. Right, this is the end of it. Thank you so much, pleasure man.
Speaker 3:I really enjoyed it, man, it's a great talk and I think it's great You're doing what you're doing. Well, all right.
Speaker 2:That was quite an illuminating interview between the two of you guys. He's really prolific and you nailed it in the first part. You said he's like a naturally curious person and doesn't seem to stop, does he?
Speaker 1:no, he does not stop. Unfortunately, I was I was. I was really looking forward to seeing his paintings. That didn't work out because, uh, there was some accessibility issues I used a wheelchair that we couldn't get that work. But I I've been sort of stalking. As he mentioned on the show, he has an Instagram where he shares the things he makes and and I've been stalking him there and, uh, since the interview, which seems to be a theme for me. I usually go into these interviews thinking I know a lot about the people and then I realize I don't know nearly enough and I I sort of start watching, and I've been watching a lot of the things that he's done. Yeah, that were the more recent and he's still fantastic. First of all, it seems like he hasn't aged, which is right. I mean, I think he's 60 years old yeah, he's 60 61.
Speaker 2:I want to say he's born in 64.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, he looks fantastic. He still has the spark, he still has that creativity and he is. I've been re-watching some of the old movies. I've been watching some of his newer movies obviously I've seen asteroid city and some of the other ones but yeah, he's just fantastic I, he, he, really, he is so goddamn good, he's so good he just I.
Speaker 2:I like that. I like that we were talking about um, like his, his approach and and process, and you were talking about him painting and like what's his, and he said and I literally wrote it down my mistakes are usually better than any of my ideas and I love that.
Speaker 1:He said that you know yes, I, I love that too. That was and he was talking about, if I remember correctly that this is when he was talking about, obviously, his paintings, but he was talking about the movie he made with Lars von Trier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the house that Jack built.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it sounds like Lars von Trier thinks the same way. It's just, let's mess it up, let's try see what happens. We do something differently and he's unafraid. I mean, you could see someone with his and he talks about it. He was sort of considered a sex symbol.
Speaker 2:He didn't really like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, but you can see someone who has that kind of sort of physical attractiveness.
Speaker 2:Yes yes, leaning into that, but he has done so many things that sort of go against that and go against what you think that he would probably do, like you know, know, like he was mentioning, going on on set wearing a diaper in a movie yeah you know, that's not something that you would expect from someone that looks like that yeah, exactly, he's just not afraid to, to, to, to work out of, uh, out of type, and, and, and stretch his, stretch his wings and be not just that, the smoldering boyfriend or the, the bad guy or the this or that, and yet learning about how and it's you really are getting a master class with your talks with these people, like you're getting like a point of view, good tips for for any to be actor or, or anybody wants to be in the industry.
Speaker 2:It's just, uh, like you're asking like, do you know when you're in a doozy or if it's going to be a good thing or a bad thing, and just just having that, that feeling of trust, and just having to be like you know, well, you know we took the job, we're going to do the job, and because you don't, you don't sometimes you don't know how anything ends in the editing room, you know yeah and uh, it was a kindness and we all know well if, if björk is anything to uh to to measure, she did not have a good time with last one too no he seems to have a better time with his leading men, but that's a kindness of.
Speaker 1:Las.
Speaker 2:Fuente, telling him like it was poorly written and then it was better written. And that's why you enjoy this and that and the other, to kind of beef up your talent so they don't lose confidence mid-flight. That's a very interesting way to think about it, because imagine, we've all been there. You're doing something and it doesn't matter if it's not acting in a movie, but you're part of a project. You know it's just a non-starter. That's no fun. Leadership matters in that world, you know, to keep people going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially if you think about him or other leading actors and actresses. I don't know even what you would do. You know you can try to sabotage the movie but then it doesn't get better. So what he does is. The only thing you can do is you just have to trust and you have to do the best possible work that you do and you can see from his career that that often pays off. You don't really know.
Speaker 2:No, exactly, I did like when you were saying that he would play these assholes and this and that, and then he said well, my characters don't know that, they're idiots, which is also really, which is also because that's kind of how Danny McBride does that with, like, the Righteous Gemstones, the guy behind.
Speaker 2:That is like you know. He plays like at least famously bodacious big moron people, but there's always like something redeeming there and because that person doesn't think they're an idiot, it gives him multiple sides to it. It's just not one faceted. So so you know he finds the crux and how he has to get through it and I thought that was also very interesting as well. And, like it's, he's giving you little keys, like if you're going into character work. Those are, those are big tips from a guy that knows, you know, he's worked with so many insane directors and screenwriters and and been in so movies. I mean the list is endless, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I mentioned this in an interview, but one of my favorite character types in general is a confident idiot.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And he plays a confident idiot extremely well.
Speaker 2:Very well.
Speaker 1:Because he has the looks and because, I think again, a lot of the people that have the way that he looks and the way he he looks and the way he presents themselves, they don't take on those roles and he's not afraid to do that and just be completely moronic yeah and but still have that inner strength, inner confidence that he has to, to carry to, to stay the course, because it's so easy to just like I can't do this anymore and get the cringe.
Speaker 2:but he's like nope, nope, nope, I'm sold, it's fabulous. I'm sure our listeners can hear the rooster. Do you hear the rooster behind me sometimes, cornelius, we've named him Cornelius. There's a rooster in the backyard.
Speaker 1:Is he living in your backyard, in my neighborhood or just close by?
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's close by. There he is. I don't know if you can hear him. He's funny. But yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to sidetrack you. He's just going off right now.
Speaker 1:Cornelius, that's a great name, but yeah, and then just to wrap things up, for Matt, I mean I really liked, like you said. I mean he's 61 years old and I think towards the end he just said something like I've only skimmed the surface of what I can do and I think that's, you know, I think, a lot of people in that position could sort of rest on their laurels and just stop.
Speaker 1:And you can, just, I can. You know, I think you heard in an interview, but even more in his presence, that he has the drive and the passion to keep going for a very long time.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And I'm really hoping that he directs another movie. I mean, I watched his directorial debut and I thought it's really good and I really, really hope that he gets to do that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the City of Ghosts. That's the movie that he did, right.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, we implore our listeners to just dive into some Matt Dillon archives and get into it. I mean, it's really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot to.
Speaker 2:There's a lot to attack A lot to take from him.
Speaker 1:I'm so happy and he was so gracious and I've been caught in tech with him since and he is just, he's a force.
Speaker 2:He is a force and he's a New Yorker. Like I looked at him, I'm like where? Is he from and he's like there is something about like this New York being famous and living in New York. It's just like they're not really that impressed by them themselves and you can kind of tell while you're talking he's just how he's navigating through, like that coffee shop and everything.
Speaker 1:He doesn't really he doesn't really care. Yeah, he's fantastic. We love him. Well, good to see you.
Speaker 2:Good to see you, my friend, and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 1:Yes, we will. Bye-bye, bye, bye. Thank you for listening to let's Walk. This episode was produced by Tanya Serek and edited by Gunnar Hansson. Our theme song is by Altner Runar Hlaursson.