Let's Walk (with Halli)
Go for a walk with Halli as he chats with creative people about their life and work.
Let's Walk (with Halli)
Jesse Shatkin: Crafting Chart-Topping Hits
Grammy-nominated producer Jesse Shatkin takes us behind the curtain of chart-topping pop music, revealing the winding path from his beginnings as a teenage hip-hop DJ to crafting global hits with artists like Sia, Kelly Clarkson, and Rihanna.
For anyone fascinated by how the music that shapes our lives comes together, Jesse offers rare insight into the invisible craftsmanship behind iconic songs. His journey challenges our assumptions about overnight success - spending years working minimum wage jobs at recording studios, cleaning toilets at Electric Lady Studios, and absorbing knowledge from established professionals before his breakthrough moment co-writing "Chandelier" with Sia .
What stands out is his lifelong commitment to growth and learning. Despite achieving remarkable success, Jesse maintains a beginner's mindset, watching tutorials from teenage producers on YouTube and approaching each project with fresh curiosity. This adaptability explains his longevity in an industry where many producers quickly become obsolete as trends evolve.
Perhaps most compelling is how Jesse moved beyond the judgmental constraints of what's considered "cool" in underground music circles to embrace pop production. "Cool is the enemy of creativity," he observes, noting how fear of judgment limits artistic possibilities. This liberation allowed him to apply his talents across genres without self-imposed restrictions, focusing instead on making music that resonates regardless of category.
Whether you're a music industry insider or simply curious about how hit songs come together, Jesse's insights reveal the human craftsmanship, technical expertise, and emotional intelligence required to create the soundtrack to our lives. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with the creative minds shaping our cultural landscape.
how's it going? It's going, it's going great. Another another day, another, another interview, another weekend another you I'm excited about, about, uh, your, uh, your uh interview this one yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:Before we get to that, how's your weekend?
Speaker 1:So my weekend was spent with just sleeping in which, you know, for me and my husband is like 6 am, which is like kind of crazy. Most people just don't understand that on a Saturday, trust me, it's not because I want to, it's just kind of how my job has made me. Then we went and had Japanese lunch, which was at Isakaya Beautiful soba, noodles and sake and yada yada. Home for a nap, followed by a phone call from friends who said do you want to go walk in West Hollywood and take a look at participating gay pride, or do you guys want to go see, maybe, mission Impossible later?
Speaker 1:And I said let me get back to you after the nap and after we woke up. Mission Impossible it was and we had a blast. It's like three hours of mayhem, that movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's crazy. I just saw it a few days ago as well. It's Tom Cruise trying to save the movie industry.
Speaker 1:Single-handedly, by being in every stunt scene imaginable. I mean Jesus Christ. That movie did not stop.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a lot. I enjoyed it and I think I make a point of trying to go to the movies a lot, because I think I'm honestly afraid that there won't be movie theaters in a few years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I concur.
Speaker 2:And so I just try and go to every single movie. I actually, on Friday I went to see the Phoenician skiing- Ah, wes Anderson, and what did you think? It was very Wes Anderson, yes, getting all sorts of different critiques.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing. I'm hearing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Michael Cera was amazing. He has a ridiculous Norwegian accent which is just that I can't wait to see. It's beautiful in everything he does, Every time he's on screen. I just laughed. But yeah, it's very Wes Anderson. There was nothing in it that did not feel 100% like him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, oh, I'm excited it's always a jewelry box. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Every frame is beautiful. Yeah, every scene, every line, delivery is exactly the way he wants it to be, for sure. So I admire that. There's always a good reason to go to the movies.
Speaker 1:I mean Wes Anderson for me, like I concur with you, I'm a massive fan. I love I mean obviously I work in art department, so I mean it's just like his sets and everything he does is just so incredible. But sometimes he West Andersons over himself sometimes, which I felt what he did in French Dispatch. But I love Asteroid City, the movie that came after. But I'm not a like with Mission Impossible and James Bond. I'm not a critique of those movies, I'm just excited that they're out.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And there's so much for the eye, I mean, and that means that the movies win. That's my whole mantra towards it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. I feel also when I go to the movies. Every movie that I see in the movie theater is at least 30%, 40% better than if I watch it at home.
Speaker 1:It is, it always is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Being in a group of people seeing it massively, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about the guests that we have coming up because I really enjoy music. I obviously listen to a lot of music. I sometimes play music.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you make music I make music.
Speaker 2:And this guy, jesse Shatkin, he is a producer. He started as an engineer, he's also a songwriter now, and he's worked with some of the biggest names in pop. He's mostly a pop producer he's worked with I think his most long-lasting collaboration is with Sia. Yeah, wow has done a lot of her work. Also Kelly Clarkson, jennifer Lopez, kylie Minogue a lot of diva.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, big pop divas, yeah.
Speaker 2:But also later with Lizzo, charlie XCX, miley Cyrus, one Direction, I think just a bunch, a bunch, a bunch of people Fabulous, nominated for a Grammy, both as a songwriter and as a producer. So I'm a bit of a. I like everything about creativity. I like, so I just like people in every single aspect of making something. Obviously there's the front person, who is, in these cases, these big pop stars, but there are so many people behind the scenes and a producer on a track does so much to make it what it becomes. I'm really excited about learning how he got into the industry, what kind of lessons he has learned and how he's able to sustain a career, because he has a long career now, at least from the outside, I would imagine that there's always a new, fresh producer. There's always a young kid who comes in and takes over, so I'm interested in learning about how you sort of stay fresh.
Speaker 1:It's incredible how the sausage gets made. You know, he's not the person on the poster, he's behind the poster. It's like the editors and those people for like movies. You know. It's like you know, everything depends on these craft skilled people, and how do they stay fresh? I'm super excited to hear about his creativity and like his methods and how he approaches it all, so I'm down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't wait. Excellent. Well, I'm going to call you back and we're going to listen to it together and see what's up. Oh, I love it. I'll see you on the other side. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Bye.
Speaker 2:So how's life? Life's good yeah.
Speaker 3:Where to begin? I just slept in today, Nice. I had a double date last night with some friends and I haven't been drinking much but I had a couple drinks. But I've been on this 5 am routine recently which has felt amazing, Just kind of going to sleep early, waking up early, having an hour or so before the baby wakes up. Do you have kids?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have kids. How old are they? Eight and 13. Up, you have kids. Yeah, I have kids. How old are they?
Speaker 3:uh, eight and thirteen okay, wow, yeah, so you have a young one. Oh yeah, she's two. Yeah, so what's your name? Sigrid? Sigrid, is that the swedish? It's scandinavian. Yeah, just generally, yeah, yeah we have um.
Speaker 2:There's an iconic version of it, which is city, which is spelled the same with the ur at the end. Pronounce it again Sig, yeah, sig, ryders.
Speaker 3:Oh wow, yeah, yeah, in Norway they pronounce it Sigl Sigl, sigl, sigl. Yeah, in Norway that's what they say, yeah but it's spelled the same way.
Speaker 2:Well, the Norwegians are kind of the worst Scandinavians I've been trying to decide. I was wondering if maybe it was the Danish, but I can't tell. They're not far behind, it's really. I mean, I don't know, they're not really considered Scandinavians officially, but the Finnish are the best.
Speaker 3:They're the best. I don't know any. I don't know any Finnish. Okay.
Speaker 2:That's good to know. Yeah, they're my favorites. Okay, why I don't know.
Speaker 3:They favorites. Okay, why, I don't know. They don't talk. It's very nice I I have a lot of swedes in my life who I love dearly, yeah, but I can't compare them to the finnish people, so I need to know there's a lot of swedes in your business.
Speaker 3:Yes, the formulas a lot of them, yeah, kind of came from there. Yeah, totally. Um, it's really interesting, and I've been to sweden a few times to try to kind of like see what's in the water there, and nobody has really been able to give me a good answer about why it is that there's so many great pop songwriters.
Speaker 2:I don't know the answer either yeah, but sometimes it's just, you know, in Silicon Valley, yeah, right, once it starts happening, yes, it happens. Yeah, it's what builds. You know, I think that's probably what I did. Yeah, and then it's like, oh, we can do this. Yeah, this is a viable thing. I played a tiny tiny bit part in a TV series that was directed by Lasse Hallström, who directed all the APA videos. Okay, he recorded all of them in his apartment when he was like 20-something and it's a tiny apartment, and so that's why they're all just like this facing forward, and then like, what do we do next? And then, oh, we can turn. And then we face left or right and that's.
Speaker 3:I love that. I mean, I'm just like you do what you gotta do with what you have and you make it work.
Speaker 2:But. But the interesting thing was then he's married to an actress called Lena Olin, who was in the bearable ideas of being in some other movies. Yes, um, and I feel like I can see her face. Yeah, she has a very, uh, distinct face, yeah, but she was on like the ingrid bergman camp, like she was in like the fancy arts and he was in the pop arts and everyone in the fancy arts looked down on ABBA like in Sweden. They were like ruining culture in Sweden. But then I think they came around and realized, no, this is actually well, I think it's good music. Yeah, me too. You know, it's one of the great cultural exports of Sweden and became a whole industry of just these pop producers mostly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've heard there's some like percentage of the GDP. That's like just all Max Martin related Some significant amount yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how did you get into into into music?
Speaker 3:So as a kid, like really young, like 12, 13, I was really hip-hop and I kind of was just like I can't see myself being a rapper. So, no, no, I didn't. I I somehow knew, maybe because, like I always had rappers around me that were good, like even as a kid, you know, I was just like okay, they're good, okay at this. Uh, there's no part of me that believes I have a talent for this kind of hip hop, just like progressive, underground hip hop, like West Coast because I'm from LA, like West Coast related, but because there was a whole scene of stuff going on here. But also just like anything good, like you know, also, dr Dre and Snoop Dogg came from here and I was obsessed with that. And then all the good East Coast stuff, wu-tang Clan and Tribe Called Quest and stuff like that. I was just obsessed with it all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I still listen to the Chronic, it's pretty fantastic.
Speaker 3:Pretty fantastic, yeah, flawless, yeah, I know I think like what you're hearing when you hear the Chronic is like lots and lots of time spent and amazing years. You know, yeah, and just like I think he's.
Speaker 2:You know there's stories of him spending 30 days mixing one song or something which is like imagine magic is just someone spending a lot of time on something, yeah, someone really really doing all the minor details, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, there's this producer artist named labyrinth. Are you familiar with him? I mean you should check it out. It's pretty brilliant. He's kind of like one of the people I listen to and I'm just like what the fuck is going on? I got the chance to spend a couple days with him in the studio and he was just like. He was just like there's no magic, he's just like I just spend. You know, he's just like I spend at least two weeks per song. I just try a million things and you know I spent like 10 000 hours learning how this one synth and that's why it sounds cool you know, I'm
Speaker 2:just like okay, few, yeah, yeah, yeah but also you also want like the quick answer, like yeah, what's the button right?
Speaker 3:and now? Yeah, the good. The good news is that it's doable if you spend enough time.
Speaker 2:The bad news is that it's going to take a lot of time yeah, yeah, yeah, but you were, so you were producing and so I was djing, yeah, um.
Speaker 3:So I was djing at first.
Speaker 3:I was just loving buying records and loving having them and then loving to do you have like a-track yeah, well, I had two turntables, yeah, yeah, yeah, and this old school, you know records and, yes, crates of records and um, so I did that and then, kind of the next step was making beats, just like by a four track and a sampler. And yeah, then you're making beats, and so, like junior high I was djing, high school I was djing and making beats, and in my high school I had a bunch of rappers and we all kind of worked on music together and made mixtapes and made songs, so so that's this is kind of like the beginning of me writing music. It was just like sampling records and having my friends rap on that. Do you have it?
Speaker 3:I don't, I have it somewhere, like I have everything I ever made, pretty much I don't know that you could say it was good, but and I don't think that you could say it was bad but what you could say is like it was different. You know, like cause, being in LA at the time and being in a hip hop, fanenvelope type of rap music, not trying to sound like East Coast music, not trying to be gangster, but trying to be like something nobody's ever heard before. That's what we were trying to do Sample different things, rap different ways.
Speaker 3:Like what like De La Soul way Like De La Soul, but like there was kind of a. There was a group called Freestyle Fellowship in LA that was kind of like the forefathers of this scene of this world and they had like a venue called the good life where like this scene kind of got together and had like open mic night and stuff like that. So it was. It was really all about like kind of intricate ways of rapping and having amazing poetry and having not being afraid of using big words and complex concepts.
Speaker 3:It was really just like high, not just about, yeah, entertainment yeah, and killing people and yeah, definitely not, definitely not, although that that you know like everybody comes from the same neighborhoods, you know so it's like that people in that scene were coming from the same neighborhoods, you know. So it's like the people in that scene were coming from the same place that Dr Dre came from, or. But it was just like a different path, a different interpretation of it all, and some of it was kind of acknowledging that world and some of it was just like a departure from that world and some of it was just like people like me who is not from that world, who just like wanted to have a creative outlet and a voice and loved making music and appreciated the artisticness.
Speaker 2:I really like 90s hip-hop, but I have to have it on headphones. Oh interesting. The lyrics are I can't have my kids hearing those lyrics. No, yeah, they are some of them pretty rough. I don't know. I just thought, you know, I remember playing something like when my older one was young and I was just listening to like you know, especially music you've been listening to like for maybe 20, 30 years. You stop kind of realizing maybe what it's about. It's just like it's a good song.
Speaker 2:Yeah stop kind of realizing, maybe, what it's about. It's just like it's a good song, yeah, and then it's you have a kid next to you and you're like that's not, I don't want them to hear this.
Speaker 3:Do you think that they have? Because you were listening to it when it came out and maybe your parents knew or or didn't know what was my.
Speaker 2:My first introduction to rap was Bart Simpson. That was like damn do you do, damn do you don't. That was my rebellion song, right.
Speaker 3:Wow, this is a very white kid.
Speaker 2:It was just fuck you dad. Yeah, you know I'm cool now, Right, I like Bart Simpson. Yes, so it was. I was late to it. You know my friends, but a lot of my friends were really like one of my best friends was like very big into Ice-T and I actually I listened to a lot of Public Enemy. Yeah, like those. Actually, those lyrics actually totally work still.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But then a lot of the sort of you know West Coast, like once Snoop came in, came in and you know it became fairly misogynistic and yeah, it's, it's again great music and it hits you, like if it hits you at the right age, it's just like, yeah, it goes into your system yeah, I just wonder, like, if your kids have something that they listen to, that that you don't know about, or something.
Speaker 2:No, they're both very. They listen to all sorts of salty things. Yeah, and I don't stop them. Yeah, I don't feel, I don't think it will work. First of all, again, that would just drive them to listen to it without telling me, yeah, and also, I just know, I don't know, I'm sure music influences how people think, but I didn't go out like, and also, I just know, I don't know, I'm sure music influences how people think, but I didn't go out shooting people after listening to gangster rap. Of course, yeah, that was not the result of that. Yeah, it was just an expression of a teenager being angry. Yeah, having nothing really to rebel against as much as this. So this felt like angry music that I could listen to and feel like, yeah, I'm right there with you, yeah, even though I have no idea what you're talking about, right, like I have no reference frame of reference, like my problems are very small, right, compared to what you're talking about but anger is universal and you can.
Speaker 3:you can hear it and feel it and recognize it and relate to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but was it for you being a DJ? Was it? And now a producer? You know you're not in the front, like you're not the front man. Is that also? Was it that you didn't feel like you could do it, or was it just like this is?
Speaker 3:more safe. I guess there was never a part of me that wanted to be in the front ever. I guess I just knew that about myself. Maybe I've always felt pretty introverted with a lot to say. So this was kind of like a perfect way, and I guess I knew that about myself even as a kid, you know like antisocial to a certain extent and but I still was like a sensitive kid and and wanted to express myself. So I don't know, I guess I just knew already that it wouldn't be through words and it wouldn't be speaking in front of people.
Speaker 3:Do you write lyrics? Not exactly. I kind of like edit lyrics and I think usually every songwriting session I have like one or two to contribute. But it's mostly just like hearing other people's ideas and bouncing off of their ideas, as opposed to, like some people can A lot of great songwriters just come in with a concept and a lyric and then it just flows forth from them. But for me it's like, if I try to do that, which I do sometimes, it's just like there's a it's just doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah, because I need a spark.
Speaker 3:I do not, not not to write music, I don't need a spark. I I mean it can come from a spark or it can come from just like sitting down, pushing a button and hearing something and then the next, then I hear the next one, it's the right button. Have you figured it out? I? Have not figured that if I did, I wouldn't tell you is, is the um uh.
Speaker 2:So you, you were making uh rap, rap, basically with your friends. Yeah, and were they as intuitive as you, or was it?
Speaker 3:yeah, so I mean a lot of them went on to have careers in rap music. So they like live. They lived it. They still do.
Speaker 2:Amazing, yeah. And how did you graduate? What was the next step?
Speaker 3:After high school I moved to New York. I went to NYU To study music. I kind of was in this school called Gallatin where you can create your own major. So I did a combination of music and sociology. Okay, kind of roughly, I was doing music as independent study, mostly like working in studios and doing recording projects and some like basic music classes, and then I was just kind of doing other classes that interested me, not specifically always sociology. It was just kind of like I always knew I wanted to do music. So NYU is kind of like a way for me to get to New York and kind of experience music there and experience the studios there and the music industry there. And while I was at NYU I just kind of wanted to learn what I wanted to learn. That seemed interesting because I didn't feel like to do what I needed to do. I actually needed to go to school, but I needed to go to school in order to get to New York, yeah.
Speaker 2:So Did you get a network of people? Was it also a way for me to meet people? Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Totally. I mean, I was still making music with my friends from high school. They kind of didn't. Some of them didn't go to school and just kind of went straight into like person putting records out. So I was making music with them and at NYU I didn't make a lot of a ton of like lasting musical relationships from school but because I was NYU I was able to like get internships at some studios and those kind of things turned into relationships that were lasting. Like college was not like a a big relationship builder for me. It wasn't a great experience. I just just like kind of like my um social anxiety and my kind of inward style was not great for like moving across the country and just like being thrown into a school without a campus, really. So there it was kind of structure.
Speaker 2:So you want with the same people. Yeah, there wasn't a class system.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have no like lasting relationships from college really, people that I like kind of chat with every once in a while, online facebook friends, facebook front kind of friends, yeah. And then I have one good buddy from my studio days who I picked up, and then a lot of kind of acquaintances and relationships from then and then like another good friend from like a time right after that and you know, now I have, now we have a couple friends and family friends and so so it's been so. So NYU, anyways, was just like it was. So it wasn't a lot of, it wasn't a good like network building time for me, but but you got into some studios. I got into some studios.
Speaker 3:What was the first one? Like where did you start? I worked in kind of like hip hop studios. Well, I worked in this one that I think it was called Power Station or Power Play, that I think it was called power station or power play and it was like the studio kind of midtown and it was like two floors underground and you just went and I was a runner and I just cleaned up and running errands and like roll blunt just to get my foot in the door and and like nobody ever got paid on time. Everybody was disgruntled and unhappy and and, but everybody was there just to be at the studio and then like some kind of it wasn't like a prominent studio, but like it did have everything you need. So like some, some like amazing talent came through who were just kind of like past their peak of, but they were there making amazing music, and so I was there for a few years.
Speaker 2:And you got to see were you were. You did they let you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, push the buttons. No, no, no button putting, just hanging out. I was allowed to be in the room. People are, I think in that world people are very welcoming of, like the kid who wants to be there. You know, like most people were that kid at some point and and a lot of people know that the kid that's hanging out in the studio is going to be the next this or that or something you know. So I just hung out and chatted with people and watched the engineers and the producers and tried to steal drum sounds from people when I could, and well, and were you, did you get any time alone?
Speaker 2:were you so studios at all the?
Speaker 3:studios at all. I think at that studio I didn't really do much. I think I was there kind of like while I was in college and doing like you know, weekends or nights or something here and there. But after college I started working at Electric Lady Studios or like my last, the Jimi Hendrix one, jimi Hendrix one, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So it was like maybe my last year of school and then for three or four more years after that I worked there. He never recorded that right. He did, he did. He had an apartment upstairs and a studio downstairs and the studio downstairs still kind of looks pretty much like it did, like all these amazing murals. You've probably seen pictures, but that was more like I basically lived there for four years. I would go there for like 72 hours at a time, sleep on the couch and go shower at the gym and work all night when people left on the tape machines and on the consoles, just kind of making music on my own what was your job?
Speaker 3:like your official I was. I was a runner general assistant there for and I started as receptionist because they needed one and I was like sure, I'll do whatever you want, just let me get in and, um, I was doing this kind of work for a really long time. You know, like I was probably well, maybe 20 when I started there and I didn't start kind of doing my own thing in the music industry until I was maybe 34 or something like that and I and all that time I never felt like anything was beneath me. I was just like I'm here, I'm learning, I'm watching people who are great at doing what they do. Maybe I would do things a little differently, but I'm just going to kind of see why they're making this decision or how they're making this decision.
Speaker 2:And you got to see a lot of different producers. Oh my God, yeah yeah, that was a huge learning, Huge Picking up good ideas from different people.
Speaker 3:I think about it all the time. You know, I remember things all the time, from Electric Lady or other things that I did along the way, where I'm just like, oh yeah, they use this piece of gear to do this, they use this you know, micing technique for this. It was like that was like college for me for my career and you got paid Barely yeah, it was minimum wage Okay which at the time was like $6.50 or something, you know I barely got paid.
Speaker 2:Were you doing other jobs or how did you make like was that enough for?
Speaker 3:you, I scraped by doing that and I couldn't have had another job just because, like I said, I was there like 80 hours a week at least.
Speaker 2:And you were just the S guy, anything anyone asked you to do.
Speaker 3:I cleaned the toilets, I parked people's cars, I patched stuff in and putting mics up and anything. So I was a receptionist and then I was a general assistant and then I was an assistant engineer. That's kind of like you go from general assistant to assistant engineer and then maybe you become an engineer one day. It took me, I think, three out of four years to become an assistant engineer. So I was a general assistant all that time and then when I became an assistant, I had been waiting. One of the reasons I wanted to work at Electric lady so badly was because of d'angelo's voodoo album had been made there and I read the credits and I was like, okay, this is where. And then I was like, looking at the roots albums and eric badu albums and everybody was making their albums there and I was like, okay, I love all this music, this is the music I love. I want to work there. And after a couple years of work, eric badu, was that the big album?
Speaker 3:came out of that studio. This album called Mama's Gun came out of that studio. Yeah, yeah. Which is my favorite one. I was there for a lot of the making of it, which is amazing. I just remember like sitting on the stairs outside the studio listening to the mixes being made and I had been waiting. I had been offered the job of being the assistant engineer for the next D'Angelo album.
Speaker 2:The reason you came into the studio.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that must have felt good, it felt good, but I think I waited for two more years for it to happen. You know, Okay, and then there was this kind of like unhealthy family dynamic at the studio at the time of, like, the manager had like a temper and would fire you from time to time. And then you, and then out of nowhere, you get called to come back to work and I think I got fired for the third time and I had been waiting for this D'Angelo record to happen. That didn't seem like it was ever going to happen and then it came out 12 years later. You know. So it's a good thing. I didn't wait a long wait around forever, and then I got. So I got fired for the third time and I was just like, fuck this, I'm out. I got to the point where I'm learning so much.
Speaker 2:But if I really want to do what I want to do, I kind of need to be being creative and making stuff all the time you felt like you had learned enough about the technical aspects of it, I mean.
Speaker 3:I felt like I had learned just enough, because you can learn that stuff forever, your whole life.
Speaker 2:People don't spend their whole careers as engineers.
Speaker 3:And always learning and always getting better. So I'm still learning and I'm still getting better at that stuff. But I had learned enough to kind of like operate my own little studio at home for like rappers to come record at, and so and I was doing that and I was, I had created all this music while I was at electric lady, just kind of on my own, of rap songs and I was licensing it to film and TV stuff and I was just like, okay, I can do this, I have relationships, I can just license these wrapped catalog wraps on that was enough money to sustain you barely, you know, like my apartment was like 700.
Speaker 3:I ate, like you know, the like off-brand cereal and like I split a can of tuna fish over two lunches or something you know like it was. I mean, it was amazing. We were happy. I was so happy. Did you have a social life? I did have a little bit of a social life. Yeah, there's people I had a good friend that I had made at the studio who I hung out with. I had people in my neighborhood that I hung out with, people that I worked with, that I hung out with. It was fun, I mean. And how old are you? At this point? I'm probably like 23, 24. Okay, and I stayed in New York till I was 30. So I was just doing that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:And and and when did you? What was the like, the? How did you go from rap to something else? And what was? What was?
Speaker 3:the next thing. So when I moved, so when I moved back after 10 years in New York, I realized I was kind of like missing. I had nieces and nephews. I was missing my two good friends who I mentioned earlier and my family and I was just like, okay, if I'm going to be doing film and TV stuff and I'm not really feeling inspired by New York anymore, I might as well come home to LA.
Speaker 3:So I came home and as soon as I got home I had a friend who had kind of like become an industry guy and he was trying to introduce me to people he knew who needed help in the studio. He used to manage Diplo and I had met with Diplo about kind of working with him and I think his thing was all over the place so much that, just you know, we didn't couldn't really stick to that one. And then he, then the next person he introduced me to, was this guy called Greg Kirsten who's a really big pop producer and you as an engineer in that engineer, yeah, yeah, um, did you feel like that was a step back, or was it?
Speaker 2:no, I mean so, mean, so, still just like. Are you just always happy?
Speaker 3:I listened to his music and I listened to my music and I was like I could spend a few years working for this guy. Yeah, I want to know how that to do that stuff that he's doing. But I was still. I was also just scraping by. I was like this is not that, you know, like I can continue to scrape by, but I don't want to just scrape by, you know, like forever. So there's probably a lot more that I have to learn. And this guy knows a lot of it. I can tell just from listening to it. And I met him. He's a great dude. And then I worked for him for five years and while I was there I learned about pop music. I learned about chords I didn't know about that. I learned about engineering. I learned about mixing. I learned about sound design. I learned about dealing with personalities in the studio. I learned about winning.
Speaker 3:He was doing things that were my wildest dreams every day and I was. There was just part of me that was just like that stuff doesn't happen for people, you know. Yeah, so to see it firsthand was really mind blowing to me. What was the thing you learned from someone like that? It was work, ethic and professionalism and it was some of that. There's no magic button stuff. Cause I was just like, first of all, he's like, he's like a world-class musician, I am not not even close. So I was just like, first of all, he's like, he's like a world-class musician, I am not not even close. So I was just like, okay, so that took years for him to get to, to get to do, you know. And then on top of that, like he knows all the boring stuff too, like he like knows about, like EQ curves and and I was just like I don't know.
Speaker 3:I kind of like I grew up kind of idolizing people like Pharrell Williams or Timberland or people who kind of made it look easy. And because of that I was just like, ok, I don't need to necessarily get better and better, I just need to kind of have my vibes be good and on the tracks, you know. And then, but while I was working with him, I was just like, no, I have a million things to learn in every area of this job. Um, what kind of music were you making with him? He was making pop, relate pop and pop, adjacent music.
Speaker 3:So he was doing like very, very pop stuff, which kind of as a kid growing up kind of listening to underground hip-hop, I would have like been like this is this is cheesy or whatever, but like, while I was with him I learned about doing something that seemed that might seem cheesy but make it great. Like, make pop fun, make pop interesting, make pop pop, make it pop. Yeah, I mean he, he would challenge himself and he would put his whole brain into these pop productions. But that's kind of part of the fun of it and part of the trick of it is to like do it in a way that's listenable to everybody.
Speaker 3:You know, but a musician and as like a jazz musician, didn't feel worried about how people saw him enough to limit himself and what jobs he did. He was just like I'm going to do this pop thing, I'm going to have a great time doing it, people are going to like it and if the real heads out there who are worried about cool don't like it, fuck up, you know, and fuck them all the way to the bank.
Speaker 3:Basically you know, and I and I love that I was just like, yeah, I don't want to be like painted into a corner, I don't, I want to have fun. I want to also like do things that are profitable, but do it in a fun and creative way. And so it just kind of opened my mind because I I just came from this world of just like underground music and super A lot of judgmental people in that world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I was like Looking down on, like I was talking about before, like people that look down on ABBA. Yeah, that's not art, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's something cheesy, and imagine if ABBA had listened to that. You know.
Speaker 2:Cool is kind of the enemy of creativity. Yeah, it's just like it's just like this. For me, it's about fear.
Speaker 3:It's, you know, about being afraid that someone will look at something you do and say, well, that's not cool, yeah, and so it's very limiting, like a very limiting way of living yeah, I agreed and and I don't really feel limited by it anymore, and I find that like there are some artists that I don't work with because they're just like Jesse's done, jesse's like a pop guy and there's some artists who I think respect it and are just like pop is an art form. That's not what I want to do, but I know Jesse's capable of doing other things. I can tell by listening to his pop music or it's not, you know his non-pop music or whatever.
Speaker 2:And so you spent five years with him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, five years with him.
Speaker 3:And was there a point again where you thought, okay, I have enough again to graduate. There was a point where I was just like, wait a second, I've done this same thing, I've actually mastered this thing. And then I was like, okay, wait, I've also mastered this thing, actually mastered this thing. And then I was like, okay, wait, I've also mastered this thing. And if I really want to continue to keep, and now I feel like I'm getting paid really well to do this and I'm comfortable and I could continue to do this forever and be comfortable and I wanted to keep growing and I wanted to keep getting better and I realized that the only way to do that was to just be full time making music, even though it was risky to leave and I was comfortable and happy. I just kind of knew.
Speaker 3:And also, while I worked with Greg, I made a lot of relationships, like with Sia, for example, and with Kelly Clarkson, who I worked with for a really long time, and a lot of people I see to this day are people I met being married, because he just had everybody come through. So that was kind of what got me to being able to do my own thing was. And so you set up your own studio. I set up my own studio in my apartment at the time. Well, I guess by the by then I had a house in highland park. At some point along the way I was still kind of continuing my hustle with the film and tv thing and I got a super bowl commercial and I was able to buy a very small house in highland park. At the time it was, you could buy a house in highland park, um, for for a super bowl, for a super bowl ad, yeah, yeah, so I bought a tiny house and I built a tiny studio and I had that going on when I stopped working for Greg.
Speaker 3:What year is this?
Speaker 2:2013, I think, okay, so at a time when, like home studio studios were becoming sort of as good as what you would get and I may be not as good, but they were getting good enough that you could do a lot yeah, I mean, I could require simple equipment relative to what it happened, when everyone needed a need for something exactly and what were the first like kind of things you were doing? Was it just taking up any any project or did you have a specific goal of where this was going?
Speaker 3:I was really excited to work with songwriters. I had always been making beats all the time that I was working with Greg and I was just like what I need is people who can write the songs on these beats. So my publishing deal really helped me with that kind of thing, and so I was working with all these songwriters who were coming through, and simultaneously I was working with Sia.
Speaker 2:A lot Was that your big sort of first. That was kind of the big, big break. Songwriting collaboration.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she had become a big songwriter. Yeah, for others. For others, yeah, she wrote a big rihanna song and a big david get, a song that she performed on and she but she was also writing songs for everybody at the time she became. She was a big songwriter but she had been offered a record deal and she was just like I'm gonna take this deal and I'm going to. It's a good deal, I'm going to do it and it's going to get me out of my publishing deal. I'm just going to put some songs that I like on the record, then I'll be free of my publishing deal. And so she made the record with you, with Greg and me, mostly with Greg and her, her and I wrote Chandelier, then that song. They made the record. Yeah, but she made the record. How did that?
Speaker 2:happen.
Speaker 3:We I was while they had been starting the record. I was still working with Greg and we were. They were. Them two were making the record and I was engineering and I was recording everything and at some point, the studio was in Greg's house at that point and Greg went upstairs to have lunch with his family. He took a studio, was in Greg's house at that point and Greg went upstairs to have lunch with his family, took a lunch break and me and Sia were just down in the live room and we kind of sat at the piano and it just happened like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it happened like that and she made a voice memo of the song. Did you realize it was good? I realized it was good. Did you realize it was great? I didn't. I mean, I think I was so excited by the opportunity to work on it and, like, put my whole heart into it, and it was one of the first things that I got the opportunity to do that, like, my perspective on it is kind of skewed. You know, that came out in what 2015? Yes, 20, somewhere around there yeah, that was her breakout that was her breakout as a solo artist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because she had been an artist before and then that kind of well, that was a big one but that but, and then she went away as an artist and then she came back as a songwriter, and then she came back as an artist and that was kind of what broke the door down for her as an artist yeah, but she had.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's a pretty amazing song, thanks, the video is great also. The video is amazing and I remember even like there was a uh, jim Carrey spoofed it, yeah, and you know it was. It was like a phenomenon, yeah, like a cultural phenomenon it was yeah.
Speaker 3:Was that wild? It was wild. I mean. I saw the video. She sent me an early cut of the video and I watched it with my girlfriend now wife and we both were just like kind of scratching our heads about it, but we both wanted to keep watching it. And I feel like I've had that experience with some other, with some records along the way, where I'm just like I don't know why I like it, but I know that I do. I know that I need to keep listening to it or watching it or something. Um, but then just, but it was so like not like anything else that I was really shocked by how well it was embraced by the rest of the world and it made me so much more proud of the experience, of the success of the record. I felt like it was like sia was making art yeah, I mean it is.
Speaker 2:It is that kind of song where you feel I mean lady gaga has these small songs as well, where you feel like, yes, I understand, this is pop production.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but at the core, this is just an extremely good song yeah, I feel like I put everything I learned along the way of 20 years of trying to make it into the production of that song. Yeah, it didn't take me a long time to do, but it was like, oh, I know this trick, oh, I know this trick, oh, I know this trick, and I've learned them through blood, sweat and tears. Yeah, and you had all the tools ready. I had all the tools. So, while the production didn't take long, it took a long time to know how to make the production.
Speaker 3:So and then I kind of continued doing those same tricks, you know, and other tricks that I've learned along the way on other records, to like varying degrees of success, and at some point I was like, nope, I have so much more that I have to learn. I have to go back to the drawing board. I have to like doing what I do. I need to make learning new shit part of the everyday job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you didn't. You didn't just think I've made it.
Speaker 3:I did for a second. I did for like maybe a year. I was just like, okay, I've learned everything I need to know. I can just keep doing what I do and cash out and be you know. And then I was like, oh shit, I don't, there's so much I don't know how to do and all the things I know how to do aren't appropriate.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for this song, or that song, or, and so you had a lot of pop tools, pop tools and I had some hip-hop tools, yeah, but you wanted to expand, I wanted to expand and I wanted to know how to do the other pop tools and the other hip hop tools. So what's the graduation? What do you? I had chandelier, um, so it was about kind of collaborating with more people than I thought I had to and learning from other people, and also like watching YouTube videos of kids making presets on on plugins and I'm just like like I don't know how to do that, but this fucking 17 year old knows how to do it, so I'm gonna spend my next hour watching him do it and asking questions.
Speaker 2:When I was with other folks and we always just kept the beginner's mindset of yeah, like there is no end, yeah no, I mean, I just started taking piano lessons again, you know.
Speaker 3:So yeah, it's I, and that's what. One of the things I love about what I do is that, like you, can learn forever.
Speaker 2:And from there did you get typecast. Is that what happens in this industry? Is it like I want this guy because he knows how to do this thing?
Speaker 3:I think some people see me as a pop guy. Yes, and there's some gigs I don't get because of the things that I have done and the things that I haven't done.
Speaker 2:Isn't that fair. Do you feel like you could do?
Speaker 3:those things I do think I can do a lot more than I'm giving credit for, but I also am just like if you want me to be a pop guy, that's great.
Speaker 2:I'm happy to do that, you know, because you've done. You mentioned you work with kelly clarkson. Yeah, obviously you've continued to work with sia. Yeah, rihanna, I think, like it's, it's a lot of very, very big, a lot of female vocalists. Is there a reason for that? I think?
Speaker 3:I mean a lot of it has to do with Sia, the songs I did. The song I did with Rihanna was a Sia song and some of the stuff I did with Kelly was were Sia songs that we wrote for her and my success with Sia opened those doors to work with other kind of big female voices. But a lot of people are very open-minded in the music industry. Some a lot of people aren't, but like I, you know, like I work with all types of people that come to the studio. Is this done?
Speaker 2:at home.
Speaker 3:A few years ago I moved the studio out of the house just a little too close for comfort. Being married, and now it's definitely would be hard with the baby running around I just I don't think I'd get anything done. I don't want to hang out with her all day, you know. Yeah, yeah, I think that I do have kind of more. I want to say like I feel like if I go to my grave today not having made great R&B records or not having made big hip hop records, I'd be okay, but I'd also feel like I hadn't really said everything I have to say. I think that I'm at the place, after all these years of kind of learning everything I've learned and listening to everything I've listened to, that it could be any genre almost. There's some genres that I don't really understand, can't really wrap my head around and can't really vibe with all the way. But it could be. It could be so many different things and I'm and I'm completely open to to anything like what I just explained.
Speaker 3:You know, for example, I just worked with an artist named Chelsea Wolf, who's kind of an alternative singer, songwriter, and I'm working with this guy, jacob Lusk, who is in a band called the Gabriels, which is an amazing band, and it's kind of like alternative gospel ish. It's also kind of part of the equation is that like part of my job is to support these artists and doing what they want to do. So it's kind of like if I can be in support of this type of artist and that type of artist and that type of artist, it's almost feels kind of more appropriate than for me to say I need to go find the next R&B star. You know, it's kind of just like I don't know. I kind of take it as it comes in a way. What about?
Speaker 2:personalities Is it? Have you found that you were very good at working with certain, not necessarily in terms of genre, but in terms of just the personality of the person and how they work?
Speaker 3:I like to work fast. I like that. I like kind of unfiltered mania in the studio um, and that's part of why cia and I worked so well um together. But I think that's kind of like my ideal thing, just like if the creative process is just like a big explosion. But I'm also a very patient guy and I'm down with the other kind. Do you know when?
Speaker 2:you have a good song. Yes, I do. Do you know if it's going to be popular?
Speaker 3:I think that there are some basic ground rules. Um, I think that, like, if you have the song on the record that is up tempo and has the best chorus, yeah you probably are going to get the most streams on the record. It's not always the case, obviously, but I think generally, that rule kind of applies. It doesn't mean that that's what I'm always trying to do, sure, but I think that if I've worked on a record and I hear the whole record you can kind of bank on the song with tempo and the best chorus to being on being the most successful, maybe eight times out of 10, or something like that.
Speaker 2:But do you feel like those are your?
Speaker 3:favorite songs? Definitely not. I feel like it's kind of scary, but generally my favorite songs are the ones with the least amount of streams.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that? Success now in the music industry is streams. Is that how you?
Speaker 3:consider. I don't know if everybody looks at it that way, but I think it's kind of a great barometer, because it's actually not necessarily the song that makes the most. I'm not is everything. Yeah, it's not necessarily the post, the song that makes the most money, because money comes from all types of places. Um, commercials, radio yeah, it's not the same as streams, but like I like looking at streams because it's just like this is what people are listening to. I worked on a record with sia for her movie and we did a song that has like this kind of like hip hop beat and like operatic chorus and I was like, fuck, yeah, this is so cool, this is so different and nobody likes it. And unfortunately that happens to me a lot. But it's kind of partly why I love having a team of people around me my publisher, my manager, my collaborators kind of help me be like, yes, this is cool, maybe, but nobody's going to you know, like they are there, they can be the voice of reason and kind of help me have perspective on things you know.
Speaker 2:There's also with with TikTok. There are songs that come out and then don't do anything and somehow they explode on TikTok and they come back, which is a fascinating thing, and I don't know how much of that is produced, meaning, like, who are the people behind the scenes Like, okay, this one is actually good, it just didn't go anywhere? Or is it just all randomness?
Speaker 3:I don't know, I don't know the I don't know how, if there is a way to manufacture that kind of thing or not, but I definitely know that a lot of it happens organically. Just people unstoppable happened that way. Unstoppable happened that way. Unstoppable happened that way. Kate Bush happened that way last year or the year before or whatever, and it's just like, how cool is that? Is that running up the hill? Yeah, those records are so special and hold up to this day and I think it's kind of like what we were talking about before, about like their. That space between like I don't know, just like how innovative they were, also kind of helps them stand up to the test of time. No, because they're just still so different from anything else.
Speaker 2:They just, you know, another one I think about a lot in that sense is I feel love with Donna Summer, yeah, yeah, cause I was just like how did they and I you know there was anelandic guy that did the programming oh, no way of the of the. You know that part and yeah, but it's still. Listen to that and listen to what else is happening at the same time. It's like this is these are people inventing music, yeah, uh, and it's it's so interesting.
Speaker 3:It's so interesting that song still feels fresh to this day. Yes, that song came out today, it would still be? Yeah, yes, it would still be.
Speaker 2:I mean it, just both of those, yes, yeah, they just feel timeless yeah and forever, and unlike anything else.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm glad we're talking about this. This is what I need to be thinking about who is doing like music, like that? Now, it's a very good question. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, like charlie xcx, she's on the frontier. You worked with her, I have worked with her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah so you're on the frontier.
Speaker 3:Well, I didn't, I didn't make this record, or I actually haven't made any of her records. I've worked with her for other people's records so many.
Speaker 2:I mean I heard, have you listened to the new Bon Iver? I haven't heard it yet. You put on an EP, yeah, yeah. And there's one song on there called Award Season. It's the big one. There's another one that is the big one, but that song to me, me, I mean it's not new, new, but there's something in his voice it's it's extremely powerful, yeah, where I feel like he's talking to me from like beyond a barrier of life and death or something like you know there's something about.
Speaker 2:I just listen to it and I'm just like this is different. Yeah, and I'm not a huge point of air fan. Like this was like the first one that I just thought, oh wow, well, that's good to hear. This is different. Yeah, and I'm not a huge Bon Iver fan. Like this was like the first one that I just thought, oh wow, well, that's good to hear. This is really powerful.
Speaker 2:I mean, he's certainly sonically a very progressive guy but yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm always trying to find new music, but I feel, I feel more and more.
Speaker 3:And as I get older, comfortable bits. Yeah, I know, I, I, I have a such a strange relationship to me to listening to music because of what I do. So much of the music listening I do is homework. That I don't necessarily always. I guess I listen to so much music that I don't love because I'm just like I don't necessarily love this song, but it's kind of helpful to know why I don't love it. Yeah, and it's also I don't necessarily love the song, but I love how the snare sound is tuned and that's interesting and I can use that, you know. Um, so I, I think it's helpful in that way.
Speaker 3:But then I sometimes wonder if I should just be kind of like, I don't know, when growing up I would just make mixtapes of all my favorite songs and they were good, you know, yeah, and. But now I don't think I could do that because I'm not I'm because I'm not the same type of music fan. So I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe it's I'm not listening to enough, even though I do listen to a ton. Do you miss albums? I listen to albums all the time you do. Yeah, if someone puts an album out that I'm interested, I listen to the whole thing a few times. You know, okay, yeah, yeah, I think you're one of the few.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe I think albums for me went away a while ago with Spotify, right Kind of just well, I'm kind of like a completist in that way, Like I kind of like I need, I need to understand, I need to hear the whole album and then I need to hear the whole discography. You know, like I'm like that with music and then I'm like that with authors too. I'm just like, well, this book is amazing. How did you get there so?
Speaker 2:so, maybe that's part of it, maybe and I think that the main things that I'm hearing from the conversation like as a takeaway is, first of all, not not, uh, feeling like any work is beneath you, no, um. Secondly, just getting in the room being the reliable person, which I think is like if you're able to show up and do things on a deadline, that already puts people like people don't understand how big of a difference that makes. Yeah, you know, in any industry there's so many people that show up late and don't deliver, and you know all of that.
Speaker 3:I read and don't deliver, and you know all of that. Um, I read uh, I think it's called a year with swollen limbs or swollen limbs or something brian enos book. Have you read this? No, and he said that he felt like he was typecast and judged for being a guy who delivers things on time um, that's not an artist yeah, it's not an artist, right, if you, if you keep a schedule.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know, like a lot of people I deal with are are not like that, but I definitely am and it has helped people, I mean it's just having a reliable person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, apart from all like good work and all that, if somebody doesn't deliver, yeah, I can ruin a lot of things and you can break the momentum. Yeah, and then also just the beginner's mindset of it all is constantly being open to changing your way of working and not being sort of hung up on okay, this worked, let's do this forever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, if it had worked for me I might still be doing it.
Speaker 3:But thank God it didn't you know, because it's just like it's kept it that much more interesting, that much more challenging and, um, those things have really been good for for me personally and, and I don't know, I feel even more kind of beginner's mindset than ever lately. Um, I don't know, I've been collaborating with these producers who are like half my age and I'm just like what, the how did you do that? And I don't know's like. It's kind of like keeps you young, keeps, keeps it exciting, keeps it fresh, and that's kind of like if I can bring some of kind of my experience and expertise to those situations, it also can make for like a really good piece of music. How?
Speaker 2:do you age gracefully in this industry for like a really good piece of music.
Speaker 3:How do you age gracefully in this industry? Yeah, you know, like I never even thought it was a possibility, but outside of, like Quincy Jones example, until I worked with Greg, because you know Rick Rubin. Yeah, but you know like I don't know how old he is, it looks it looks ancient.
Speaker 3:I think, yeah, I mean he's not a young guy in music industry terms, so he has it figured out as far as kind of aging gracefully. But I think that kind of working with Greg is it's another thing that I learned from being there, because he is 10 years older than me. He's still working most days like I do, and I think young people trust old farts. They do.
Speaker 2:They can.
Speaker 3:I think that it's a different type of dynamic, like I'm not like going out and partying with everybody like I used to, but that's okay. And I think it's just like maybe there's a different type of professionality because there's like that much of a gap in the ages and the life experience and all that, but that's okay too. We're here to do the same thing and that beginner mindset helps, just like. What do you want to talk about? What can we do today? As to people in the studio who want to make something great, you know, just take everything else out of the equation and you can have a really kind of like special piece of music happen from it. Um, so it's, it's hard because we are who we are and I am how as old as I am and I've been through all the things that I've been through, but that's kind of like a be here now type of thing in the studio. If, if you can achieve it, it's like can be quite special. Well, this has been great. So fun, man. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, wow, all right, wow, so there's a lot to take away from this guy. What a lovely human too. Let's start there. Yes, extremely.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot for me that I took away from this. Obviously, this applies to the stars as well some of them at least but definitely the great professionals behind the scenes. I think a lot of the things that he's talking about really resonate, because I've worked a lot with creative people and been in sort of more of a background role and you have to play a certain part, and I think he plays it extremely well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I don't know where to start. He has obviously this fantastic career and it's not hard to understand why it's not that he lucked into it. It seems he just put in the work. I mean, he was a receptionist, he put in the work. He did everything. He was just whatever it is that he needs to do to get in the room and stay in the room and make sure that people call him again.
Speaker 1:I find that to be my favorite. I see it in my field and like and I'm I mean, I saw it at every field, even even when I was working in advertising in Iceland and now I'm working in film production over here. It's like when I worked with a director who I knew was a PA, he came up sweeping the floors. He knew he know how to I mean department worked. I mean, maybe he did something with the grips and this. It just makes that person so much more like their pencil is so sharpened and there's no ego between a menial task or anything, because it's all towards a goal of bettering yourself and he really seemed to. And you have the same, I feel, a theme already and it's so important to be adaptable and stay teachable.
Speaker 1:My favorite thing he said was beginner's mindset. He talked about that. That doesn't mean you're a dummy, it's just you have, you're open towards, like he said, these young kids that are coming up, like when he was watching on the YouTube scene, other people do his Sia song and he's like I didn't even know. Just you know. Don't be the person like oh, I got it. Godless woman, you block your blessings If you don't want to stay teachable and open. You really do, and that seems to be the trick for him is never not learning and being open, and that's key in all these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we talked about this before. I talked to him of understanding, like, how does he actually maintain a career? And it's obvious he is always learning new things and he doesn't feel like anything is beneath him and he does. He never feels like he knows everything. He's watching youtube videos of of kids doing something yeah, um, yes, and this huge producer and so, yeah, that's that's how you do it.
Speaker 1:I mean, it really is. You know, you have to adapt or die. It really is Like you just really have to, and I see it with people who have closed, you know you work with people who have closed their doors. Yeah, and you know, then they just get stagnant. You know it's not a good thing, it's not cute. No, it's not cute.
Speaker 2:It happens a lot with successful people. You know, and you have these moments where you feel like you know you've made it, that's it. Why do you have to keep you know, doing the grunt work? Why do you have to keep learning? Why do you have to do all these things? And I think, like you said, it doesn't really take long in a fast-moving industry, for everything you know to become old.
Speaker 1:Old, yeah, yeah, and outdated. And I mean, like he said, he's taking piano lessons now. I mean this is a man who's a Grammy nominated, a big producer, just always wanting to move forward. But you know you talked about it too. It's like the fear of critique and this and that it's just like you know. Like you said, like he usually likes songs that are the worst songs and this and that.
Speaker 1:He seems to be true to himself and know how to manage Also, I mean, I'm sure, dealing with big egos and this, and that there's like a you know kindergarten teacher mentality you have to have for that. And, like he said, he likes to work fast and some people don't, and so he just kind of is like that cream between the cookies, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I also. You know I used to have a creative agency and I worked with a lot of creative people and and people don't understand how valuable it is to actually show up and just show up on time and make sure that you deliver what you're supposed to deliver. I think there's so many people in creative fields that feel like they're artists and obviously they are and that gives them a pass to do things not professionally and yeah yeah, behave poorly.
Speaker 1:Like you know not being sleeping in, and yeah, girl, have we all been there I mean I worked in advertising and like some people, just like you know, I mean if I and still here, if I would show up to work one day like that, I'd be fired. Like I can't, like that's not, I can't, I don't have the liberty to behave that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But, you know, I also found myself a job that matches my personality, which is, you know, being on time, Because if you're on time, honey, in Hollywood you're already late.
Speaker 3:You need to be there like an hour before anywhere.
Speaker 1:You know, that's the only way to go. You know, and that's a lot of knowing of your oneself.
Speaker 3:Like he knows himself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, that's a journey, too, that people sometimes never discover in their lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then also I found, you know, he started off doing sort of underground hip hop, rap, experimental things. And then I think we've all been there where we feel you know this is the cool world and you want to stay in the cool world. And then there are, you know what, some of the things he does. Now you know the very poppy things. I'm sure there are people that that sort of look at that and say, well, that's not the cool world, and I think that's also a very limited way of thinking of, of thinking.
Speaker 1:I did, you said it, you said it. That cool sometimes is the killer of of of some innovation, like it's absolutely true, because, because it gets so oppressing.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and he just follows joy and the things that he makes. Some of them are obviously very poppy and maybe a little bit frothy, but some of them are actually really amazing songs Like I listen to. After I talked with him, I listened to some of his productions and obviously listened to a lot of the Sia work that he's done, and Sia is a true artist and what she's making is really good. I mean, obviously the productions are big and there's a lot of pop to them, but these are great songs. They're produced in a way that makes you feel a certain way and, yeah, I was really inspired by him and just how humble he is.
Speaker 2:He's working all the time time I've talked to him since and he's just constantly working and he's working, constantly working with new people. Obviously that are the big names, but he also has a lot of people that we've never heard of.
Speaker 1:That he's working with I see, yeah, yeah, to just stay fresh, yeah to you know, like again, again, he's not, he's not too big to be like.
Speaker 3:Talk to my, talk to my receptionist and see if we can fit you in like he's open to, to that it's.
Speaker 1:That's amazing yeah, you know that's truly. Uh, it goes back to like and like you were saying, like both of you were saying, like the like. Imagine if abba wouldn't listen to like the the upper crust of like it's so lame, it's so this and so that, and like we wouldn't have ABBA today yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean there's a lot to be said about this. I'm so excited because now I'm going to dive into this, because how you engineer a song, I mean when you listen to it and I listened to a bit of ABBA and Sia after a while, after I was listening to to him and like the production values of an ABBA song or Sia, it's like a Lamborghini like it's so beautifully tight, it's, it's yeah, you don't.
Speaker 1:It's so easy to listen to, but you don't like the masterfulness behind it is I mean, it's, it's boggling yes, boggling and fabulous.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of bad songs out there that are pop songs but.
Speaker 2:I think what he's he's able to bring to every song at least that I've heard that he's done there's always something unique. Yeah, and I I just loved the things he was talking about. He was saying like he listens to music and it's not always music that he likes, but he will find something in it, like, how did they get that snare sound? That, to me, again, was just a beautiful thought of he doesn't have to just listen to what is in his mind like a perfect song. It's just what are the elements of this thing that he can take away?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because he doesn't care where a good idea comes from. It's like you know he's not judging that. It's just like I'll grab it from any angle, which is truly another way to go. You know, he's also my neighbor. I live in Highland Park. If he still lives in Highland, Park because I live in Highland Park in Los Angeles.
Speaker 2:I think he does. Maybe you'll run into him, I'm sure it'll happen before we know it well, this was great. I'm so happy to meet him me too so good to see you again, and we'll see you next week yes, you will.
Speaker 1:Thank you, honey. I'm the benefiting from all of this. I feel like I'm in like school it's just so fabulous. Thank you for having me and I can't wait to see you next time, babe, bye.
Speaker 2:Bye, bye. Thank you for listening to let's Walk. This episode was produced by Tihan Sincerely and edited by Safrin Lamas and Gunnar Hansson. Our theme song is by Altnir Unar Hrödeson.